What after M11 (Stefan Daniel's interview)

[jaapv]

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16 hours ago, Calvin said:

I’m a newbie to Leica with my recent M11. I feel it can be smaller and lighter to keep to the spirit of it. My Nikon Z 50 is a great, “little” camera that is lighter and much easier on the hands. I’m also intrigued with the Pixii rangefinder which takes M lenses over APS-C sensor.

I feel there should be an M line like current M and a smaller one with APS-C sensor like the Pixii, in a way replacing the CL but in back to basics and traditions way.

These can be split into a high tech, high feature version - EVF, stacked sensor, IBIS, even tillable rear display 😃 not sure how much MF aids can be improved, but it would be nice to “revolutionize” that to make MF much easier with or without rangefinder.

then there’s the traditional, basic stuff like the Pixii or the D models. no rear display. Perhaps lower res sensor, no IBiS etc.

Also, Leica can innovate on better phone connectivity like the Pixii that seems to take on a smartphone as core function approach.

Mr Daniel appears to make it quite clear that Leica is out of APS-C 

[darylgo]

Leica M had the advantage of three ways to view including the optional evf,  those too have advantages.  An evf only camera could not add a coupled  rangefinder to the hot shoe.  Leica perhaps thinks the issue is a non issue.  They did make the new Visoflex 2 shorter and more confined within the camera dimensions, so there is the awareness of bulk. Otoh - Stephan could be keeping an evf under wraps 🙂

[mirekti]

Not sure why so much hate for video. There could be an option in menu for Video ON/OFF.
If one selects OFF the video menu would be completely gone so photography purists wouldn't need to look at the blasphemy.

[lct]

29 minutes ago, darylgo said:

Leica M had the advantage of three ways to view including the optional evf,  those too have advantages.  An evf only camera could not add a coupled  rangefinder to the hot shoe.  Leica perhaps thinks the issue is a non issue. [...]

Or that the issue is just a feature of M cameras with the same solutions of accessory OVFs since the thirties or Visoflex housings since the fifties. 

[Rick]

2 hours ago, mirekti said:

Not sure why so much hate for video. There could be an option in menu for Video ON/OFF.
If one selects OFF the video menu would be completely gone so photography purists wouldn't need to look at the blasphemy.

 

"Completely gone?"  Just select "OFF" you say, and we would have our "photography purist" M camera back? 

So select "OFF, and important useful dedicated video buttons and dials found on other top notch digital cameras, that Leica would need to incorporate in a video-M inorder to make a top notch video camera, would be gone?

So select "OFF, and in-body microphones and external microphone connectors would be gone with the simple selection of video OFF?

So select "OFF, and the shift of resources Leica spent to make video on the M camera would just be gone and shifted to making a better M photography camera?

Being a rangefinder camera, M at its best, is just a pure and simple camera.  A harmonious relationship between camera and photographer.  At its worst, it would be video camera.

I've already had a video-M240 and don't want to go back there.  I'm not a video hater.  I just believe most folks would not be impressed much with an anachronistic M, rangefinder, photography-video camera.  

[lct]

My M240 car work 100% as a still camera without even me knowing that i has video capabilities. I do very little video but i have kept it partly for that. Better have a smartphone for non anachronistic selfies though . Just kidding.

[SrMi]

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If Leica increased the size and weight of the camera, I would prefer they do it for IBIS instead of video.
I also prefer the M Leica camera not to increase weight or size.

[Jk1002]

On 6/4/2022 at 11:08 PM, setuporg said:

After M11, there will be:

• M11-P
• M11 Monochrom
• if we are very lucky, M11-D!
• M11 special editions
• M12
• ...

I am not so sure we see a M11-P

I think there might be a M11-S transitioning the M10R sensor into the new body at a lower price

[Kwesi]

5 hours ago, Jk1002 said:

I am not so sure we see a M11-P

I think there might be a M11-S transitioning the M10R sensor into the new body at a lower price

There will definitely be an M11-P. Most likely June 2023

[SrMi]

49 minutes ago, Kwesi said:

There will definitely be an M11-P. Most likely June 2023

What is your source and what sensor is it supposed to use?

We know code names for two cameras, likely M11-M and Q3, both expected in 2023. 

[hdmesa]

8 minutes ago, SrMi said:

What is your source and what sensor is it supposed to use?

We know code names for two cameras, likely M11-M and Q3, both expected in 2023. 

Wouldn't it be heresy and complete break with tradition to not have an M11-P, which has always been cosmetic changes with a few mechanical refinements? If there is an M11-S, I hope it is the SL2-S sensor.

 

[Rick]

10 hours ago, lct said:

My M240 car work 100% as a still camera without even me knowing that i has video capabilities. I do very little video but i have kept it partly for that. Better have a smartphone for non anachronistic selfies though . Just kidding.

lct:  I'm incensed and offended by such a comment by a fellow anachronistic forum member!  😁

I will agree though, I liked the idea at first of the video on the M240 but, it was so badly implemented it was incredibly difficult to work well.  

Ten years later tech has progressed, the iPhone 14 is amazing( but limited compared to what is available in the video world).  Maybe, video could work in the M12 now?

Who knows, maybe Leica can cross platform video from the SL and make it decent with the new built in LCD finder and the IBIS everyone is craving for.  And I suppose there is room for a mini HDMI on the side for recording and an external screen.  Maybe, also an external mic connection could be crammed in there on the side as well, without making the M too much bigger.  And, there are after market pull focus adapters for the fabulous M lenses.  And, of course those cool video camera stabilizer mounts and shadow box lens hoods.  Could work.  Oh, camera bags... I'll need new camera bags(best part). 😃

Or, just keep making the simple M better not different?

 

[SrMi]

12 minutes ago, hdmesa said:

Wouldn't it be heresy and complete break with tradition to not have an M11-P, which has always been cosmetic changes with a few mechanical refinements? If there is an M11-S, I hope it is the SL2-S sensor.

I was not clear. I wondered whether M11-P would appear in 2023, i.e., before M11-M and Q3 (2023). I could see an M11-P being launched at some point, though there was never an M10R-P. 
I wonder if Leica or its customers see a need for a lower-resolution M11, as triple-resolution covers the need for smaller raw files. The only real benefit would be a faster electronic shutter.

[mirekti]

12 hours ago, Rick said:

 

"Completely gone?"  Just select "OFF" you say, and we would have our "photography purist" M camera back? 

Yes, you got that right.

So select "OFF, and important useful dedicated video buttons and dials found on other top notch digital cameras, that Leica would need to incorporate in a video-M inorder to make a top notch video camera, would be gone?

No need for new buttons, once you change to Video in the Menu the already available buttons would be used for video purpose. Others would be on the screen.

So select "OFF, and in-body microphones and external microphone connectors would be gone with the simple selection of video OFF?

In body mic really shouldn't be an issue. External mic can be done through a hot shoe as with M240 (if needed). I wouldn't need it.

So select "OFF, and the shift of resources Leica spent to make video on the M camera would just be gone and shifted to making a better M photography camera?

I don't think so, Leica does video for SL cameras, there's really no double work here. Some work yes, but I also doubt this would be the same team.

Being a rangefinder camera, M at its best, is just a pure and simple camera.  A harmonious relationship between camera and photographer.  At its worst, it would be video camera.

No, a rangefinder camera capable recording a video. I am not talking about making M line a video centric camera. Not even asking for HDMI out.

I've already had a video-M240 and don't want to go back there.  I'm not a video hater.  I just believe most folks would not be impressed much with an anachronistic M, rangefinder, photography-video camera.  

The only argument I see as a reasonable one is the one about the resources, but it's a speculation on how much impact this really would have on the photo side of the camera, if any.

 

 

[hdmesa]

43 minutes ago, SrMi said:

I was not clear. I wondered whether M11-P would appear in 2023, i.e., before M11-M and Q3 (2023). I could see an M11-P being launched at some point, though there was never an M10R-P. 
I wonder if Leica or its customers see a need for a lower-resolution M11, as triple-resolution covers the need for smaller raw files. The only real benefit would be a faster electronic shutter.

Ah, makes sense.

Just my opinion of course, but having shot with the M11 and tried its low res modes, I much prefer the output of my SL2-S. The SL2-S files at 1:1 are more crisp and look better to me than the M11 small or medium files.

[Rick]

1 hour ago, mirekti said:

 

Get an M240 and see what you think of it.  Rolling shutter, no IBIS, no LCD view finder with good externally mounted hot shoe mic, problems with hot sensor from long videos, more buttons, no HDMI output.  I thought as you did when I wanted video in the M240 but it really was the dog's dinner.  

Edited October 22, 2022 by Rick

[IkarusJohn]

Where next, and why does the M11 bother me more than a little?

The first M camera, the M3, took the experience of the  Leica I, II & III, standardised the lens coupling and coupled the rangefinder to the lens.  It wasn’t the first to do this, but they took existing technologies and optimised them to their fantastic lenses.  The M3 wasn’t exactly leading edge or ground breaking tech - but it was a beautifully resolved, well made camera.  Still is, though I sold mine for reasons I forget.

Leica missed (or opted out of) the SLR market until it was really too late.  Why would anyone buy into the R system, when Nikon’s F series had pretty well captured that part of the market?  I know the R lenses were great (and still are), but the Nikkor lenses weren’t too bad.

Future M cameras were glaically incremental - M2 with its framelines and simplified production, the M4 with the increase in framelines - none of these cameras were anything but holders for film and lenses; they had a focusing mechanism, viewfinder, shutter, timer and release button; no meter, no exposure assistance, no automated film advance … but they had fabulous lenses, which they continued to develop.

The M3 was 17 years old by the time Leica included a meter, and the Leica world hated it.  Back to the M4, until the M6 - it looked like an M (quacked like a duck etc), but had a meter.  Yay!  Still only fully manual …

Then we had the digital M cameras, with APS-H; full frame; live view (and video); then back to simple (no video); then massive MP and permanent live view …

Anyone else see a trend?

The film Ms were designed and made for photographers.  Leica seemed to have had a good relatinship with photographers, and understood what they needed.  I guess sometimes they were confident (?) enough to tell photographers what they needed..

The M(240) was more about what they could make (looked like a badly conceived Swiss Army knife of a camera to me), rather than what was needed.  The M10 was a return to normality.  The M10-M and M10-R are interesting, but I’ll stick with my M10-D.  

The M11?  There’s nothing there I need, and actually quite a lot I don’t want (okay, there are quite a few things I do like).  Why has Leica gone this way?  Andy (Adan) says he didn’t like the internal reflections from the meter reading off the shutter, so live view is good for him.  Well, I’m not sure that has ever been a problem for me, and he is the only one I’ve noticed mentioniing it on this forum or elsewhere.  My preference is a single opening and closing of the focal plane shutter, with the battery only operating the meter til I’m ready to take a picture.  But then, I think like a film photographer.

60MP?  Couldn’t care less.  It could be 100MP for all I care, provided there was no downside to all those pixels - overheating camera, processor and buffer overloading, image downloading, etc etc.  Given the choice of massively improved 24MP or 36MP, or even 40MP, I’d take it over 100MP any day.

But then, it’s just me (and maybe RIck).  I hope the M12, or a future M11-? meets my needs, rather than pandering to the tech race, or the vague and pointless aspirations of Gen-whatever it is that always wants “progress”.

[Jk1002]

I think what you write is where the M11-S might fit in. Doing a P version with another bump in price, who would go for that?

Especially that there are very few applications where the 60MP which are a big part of the price increase have drawbacks, when not using fast shutter or tripod.

Also I think its harder to sell an new model when the market expect an upgrded version within a year. Switching to a top nudge first, then a cheaper version may drive more sales.

Am wondering how many are sold 8n the first year, versus 2nd third a fourth.

Am running around with. M262 which I love, but would like an upgrade. The M11 is tempting, but am not sure that its not overkill for me. I am also confused how many pre owned are in the market at this early point.

 

 

[lct]

I could not care less about 60mp but live view is a prerequisite for modern Visoflexes. Want to get this again? Thanks no thanks but YMMV.

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Hallo,

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[IkarusJohn]

1 minute ago, lct said:

I could not care less about 60mp but live view is a prerequisite for modern Visoflexes. Want to get this again? Thanks no thanks but YMMV.

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Right, so that’s the only choice?

Not sure where you get the idea that I don’t like the EVF - I use it on my M10-D often.  It’s a nice option to have.  I’ll leave you to your original visoflex, and required lenses.  That sort of Heath Robinson outfit has never been for me.