Post honeymoon M 11 opinions. Have re-evaluations come into play?

[Photoworks]

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5 hours ago, hmzimelka said:

This can be interpreted as "while camera is on" and not necessarily a function that stays active after power cycling the camera. However, I hope it's a bug. 

I've looked like a right dork trying recently talking some family group shots on a tripod and the interval between shots took longer than the power saving mode. The self-timer reset to single shot mode on a few occasions and I had to go back to the camera. The remote function of the app was not practical to use either.

to me it reads that it does not change until you do..

 

Don't get me started on the Fotos app. Nobody with a brain is programming that app. Every day a different problem.  I have to use it so much that my blood starts boiling every time.

Plus you stuck with this app since no other app will get any inside to support the Leica protocol .

[hmzimelka]

33 minutes ago, Photoworks said:

to me it reads that it does not change until you do..

 

Don't get me started on the Fotos app. Nobody with a brain is programming that app. Every day a different problem.  I have to use it so much that my blood starts boiling every time.

Plus you stuck with this app since no other app will get any inside to support the Leica protocol .

Yeah, that is how I would want to interpret it...

Agreed, the app is pretty shite... Luckily most camera manufacturer's apps I've used have been disappointing so my expectations were extremely low. 

I honestly don't know why I keep it besides quickly synchronising the camera's clock and waiting for the future GPS functionality. 

Edited May 29, 2022 by hmzimelka

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[Viv]

Two weeks in.

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[LBJ2]

53 minutes ago, hmzimelka said:

Yeah, that is how I would want to interpret it...

Agreed, the app is pretty shite... Luckily most camera manufacturer's apps I've used have been disappointing so my expectations were extremely low. 

I honestly don't know why I keep it besides quickly synchronising the camera's clock and waiting for the future GPS functionality. 

Took some time/iterations, but the latest Fotos app update and GPS for the SL2 v 4.0 seems to have solved many issues resulting in what I am experiencing as a pretty solid and dependable GPS service. For this reason, I am happy to wait for the lessons learned from the SL2+Fotos based GPS to be applied to the M11+ Fotos App 🤞🏼 TBD

I believe this is the company responsible for creating the Leica Fotos app.

https://grandcentrix.net/en/references/leica/

https://grandcentrix.net/en/blog/leica-fotos-development/

From 2018:

"Developing an app natively for iOS and Android platforms that works with 12 different camera models is, as you might imagine, quite a challenge. On the one hand we wanted to create a stunning user interface focussing on simplicity and usability while featuring subtle and natural animations, on the other hand we needed to solve the technical challenges to ensure that for the user the app works exactly as expected for each and every Leica camera" 

"What powers the Leica FOTOS apps today is a cross-platform Software Development Kit (SDK) written in C++, compiled so that it can be natively used on both Android and iOS, robust and easily extendable so it stands as a solid foundation for the first and of course future versions of the apps. The SDK (we lovingly named it libleica) encapsulates the camera and protocol specifics found within the line of various Leica cameras and exposes an easy-to-use, consistent and camera-agnostic API to the application layer (which is the Leica FOTOS app on Android and iOS as of today)."

[Jipster]

On 5/26/2022 at 8:35 AM, lct said:

Any M camera should work the same good way at slow and fast shutter speeds in my humble opinion. This is the way i've been using my M3, M4, M4-2, M6J, M8.2 and M240 since the seventies and the M11 is the sole exception. Now i knew that flaw of the M11 when i ordered it and i found rather easy ways to live with them so i don't regret my purchase at all but i won't upgrade if the M12 has no IBIS as it should have as a high res camera. YMMV.

You can should 36MP or 18MP for those slow shutter speeds. I personally would have preferred a M11 in the 30+MP to begin with, but at least if motion blur is an issue with 60MP, the M11 gives you an option.

[lct]

36 minutes ago, Jipster said:

You can should 36MP or 18MP for those slow shutter speeds. I personally would have preferred a M11 in the 30+MP to begin with, but at least if motion blur is an issue with 60MP, the M11 gives you an option.

That's what i expected but it does not change anything in my experience. What's the point of pixel binning then? Don't ask me i have no idea.

[Jipster]

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21 hours ago, lct said:

That's what i expected but it does not change anything in my experience. What's the point of pixel binning then? Don't ask me i have no idea.

Actually, my mistake. It makes sense. The "shift" occurs at the pixel level prior to binning. So, whatever blur occurred is baked in before pixel binning. Too bad.  

[Photoworks]

On 5/29/2022 at 10:29 AM, lct said:

That's what i expected but it does not change anything in my experience. What's the point of pixel binning then? Don't ask me i have no idea.

pixel binning is for the 2 people that shoot at lower resolution because 24MP was to much already. So Leica has a 3 in 1 camera for them. they don't have to wait 4 more years for another camera.

[lct]

51 minutes ago, Photoworks said:

pixel binning is for the 2 people that shoot at lower resolution because 24MP was to much already. So Leica has a 3 in 1 camera for them. they don't have to wait 4 more years for another camera.

Are you kidding? If so i don't mind but i'm surprised at a camera doing a thing called "pixel binning" if it serves nothing else than reducing resolution w/o bringing anything else to the user. I hoped that such reduction would solve at least partly the motion blur issue at 1/f of slower shutter speeds but it happens that it is totally useless for that. If this is true it looks like smoke and mirrors to me and I don't find this very funny if you don't mind but perhaps i'm missing something...

[hmzimelka]

If this feature would actually work properly and reduce noise levels and not have a loss of fine detail then I would use it more often. 

At this stage, as shown in this thread, the feature has almost no value to me since there are no gains, just losses.

 

 

[elmars]

The gain is to save storage space. This might not be important on stationary work but on mobile work. It makes a difference if You load up 60 MP or 36/18 MP in the Lightroom cloud.

[tom0511]

Some people report slight noise advantage of the smaller sized dng vs downsized 60MP, other report not to recognize a difference. My feeling - if there is a difference , its not big. So I mostly shoot 60MP. 

[lct]

2 hours ago, tom0511 said:

Some people report slight noise advantage of the smaller sized dng vs downsized 60MP, other report not to recognize a difference. My feeling - if there is a difference , its not big. So I mostly shoot 60MP. 

So do i as i did not find any significant difference in noise reduction. Then when i want to shoot at 1/f and below i still use my M240 or preferably a camera with IBIS. I like much the M11 so far but it is the first M camera i use only at 1/2f and  faster shutter speeds since the M3. 

[LocalHero1953]

I finally laid my hands on a M11 at the Leica Mayfair store today. My comments are as one who has no plans to buy one but might buy a future iteration. 
As expected, it feels great in the hand, nice size and weight. My last experience with the M was with the M240 and M4; the M11 rangefinder is snappier and clearer than the latter, and probably better than the former, but not startlingly so. 
The shutter was very quiet but (and this is why I wanted to try the M11) I found the triple ‘ker-chunk-a’ sound/feel really distracting. I think it is quieter than the SL but the sound of the latter is just single, not triple. I doubt that it would cause problems of vibration and, try as I might in fast panning, I couldn’t see any sign that it meant shutter lag - images occurred just where I pressed the release. But it would definitely distract me. It’s like a very quiet version of the late and unlamented M9 shutter mechanism. 
I find this puzzling: why does the M11 have this extended sound/feel when the SL does not? And is presumably doing exactly the same close-open-close-open sequence. 

[hdmesa]

57 minutes ago, LocalHero1953 said:

...I found the triple ‘ker-chunk-a’ sound/feel really distracting...

M11 shutter sounds like using a mechanical stapler and trying to punch through several sheets of paper. I use the electronic shutter whenever possible.

57 minutes ago, LocalHero1953 said:

...why does the M11 have this extended sound/feel when the SL does not?...

Different shutter mechanisms/types.

 

[lct]

1 minute ago, hdmesa said:

M11 shutter sounds like using a mechanical stapler and trying to punch through several sheets of paper.

Same here with less sheets of paper perhaps. I found it a little embarrassing at first but you soon forget it. At least i did in a couple of days and i can do my usual click-click-clicks sans perceptible slowdown. My M11 is silver though, perhaps it feels more damped than the lighter black body i don't know. I expected to use the e-shutter more often than i do actually.

[hdmesa]

3 hours ago, lct said:

Same here with less sheets of paper perhaps. I found it a little embarrassing at first but you soon forget it. At least i did in a couple of days and i can do my usual click-click-clicks sans perceptible slowdown. My M11 is silver though, perhaps it feels more damped than the lighter black body i don't know. I expected to use the e-shutter more often than i do actually.

We could call taking a photo with the M11 mechanical shutter the "Gutenberg Press". 😂

They probably will dampen it a bit for the M11-P if they can.

I don't know why Leica is so afraid of implementing EFCS, which should now be possible since we have the electronic shutter. It would greatly reduce the shutter cacophony we have now. If they're afraid of bokeh artifacts, they can refine the hybrid shutter mode by auto-switching to mechanical above 1/500 sec. like Fujifilm cameras allow for.

Edited June 2, 2022 by hdmesa

[LocalHero1953]

7 hours ago, hdmesa said:

Different shutter mechanisms/types.

 

Well, yes, but I assume there's a reason for a different shutter. 
While playing with the M11 I had my SL2-S at hand, and noticed how loud it sounded without a lens attached, just open to the air. Perhaps there is just not enough heavy metal and glass surrounding the M11 shutter to keep it quiet without this alternative extended and damped process.

[lct]

7 hours ago, hdmesa said:

I don't know why Leica is so afraid of implementing EFCS, which should now be possible since we have the electronic shutter.

I don't know but honestly i don't sense the least shake when using my silver M11 in mechanical shutter mode. It feels and i suspect it is mode damped than my M240 or digital CL. I have no experience with EFCS though.

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[eleven24]

My random thoughts on the M11, but so far I'm loving the M11 far more than the M10 or the M240 I had prior to that.  

• most notable plus for me is the weight reduction (I opted for the black model for this reason).  This is the first digital M where I feel I don't need the thumbs up installed to counter the weight of the body.  With a 50APO or my 35lux installed, it feels much more "one handable" than my Q2M
• prefer the black paint of the M11 over the black-chrome on my M10 - from a tactile feel at least
• the directional buttons on the right, at first seemed more "clicky" and perhaps plastick-y, but now I'm not sure if my initial impression was just because it was different/new.  
• seems much easier to use the rangefinder than with the M10 - brighter perhaps?  My wife who could never focus with the M10 looked through the M11 and immediately said Oh, there's the double images you were talking about
• still not a fan of the ISO dial.  It's too stiff
• really appreciate the quick menu screen - makes using the M and the Q2 seamless
• finding I'm setting exposure comp to - 3/4 to -1 to correct for overexposure.  I expect as I get more used to the metering and the metering options that learning curve will flatten out
• Images are fantastic & filled with the same Leica look I've always felt when using an M.  Attaining this is also only possible for me by underexposing a bit via EC.  It's a big difference for me with the metering, and I suspect many who are seeing "lifeless" M11 images are feeling this overexposure a bit as well.
• EXTREMELY disappointed that there's no more magical jewel box packaging.  A very minor issue, but a $9k camera deserves a bit of unveiling in terms of packaging.  Yes, I know.  Minor issue.

In short, the handling of the M11 is as big for me as the images coming out of it and I expect as I learn the camera a bit more, as well as dial in post processing, I'll like the images even better.  Especially with the added resolution.