Leica M11 Sony Sensor - Doesn’t have the “Leica Look”

[Jeff S]

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23 minutes ago, Leicaphile said:

I think what makes photos unique isn’t the color or B&W tweaking. Gilden and Elliot used the same camera and film. Their tonality probably look almost exactly the same (I haven’t checked their photos carefully so this is just me saying). Their style and approach is what made it different, not their film processing. 

I get it. Do it in the luminance panel. That would require me to load the raw in my desktop which I never use, and then open the picture in Camera Raw (because I don’t have Lightroom) and start editing this thing to match what the camera already gave me.

I would rather start with a really great B&W SOOC jpeg and then adjust for exposure, highlights, little contrast, whatever and it’s done. 🤷🏻‍♂️

I never said shoot in jpeg and forget raw. I use the jpeg rarely. Only for B&W because I don’t need to bother editing it. The raw is still there. 
 

There’s no room for shitty JPEGs on a Leica M. That’s all there is to it. 
 

PS: Moonrise. I don’t get the hype about that picture. If I took a picture like that it would get 10 likes on Instagram. 

Sorry, our understandings and philosophies are miles apart, on many issues. No need to engage further. All that matters is that you’re happy with your approach and results.

Jeff

[SiOnara]

OOC JPEG in high contrast film style. 50mm Elmer-M. 

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[pgk]

1 hour ago, Leicaphile said:

A typical set up is RAW+Jpeg. JPEGs are typically great for Leica in B&W. It takes time to replicate it exactly. To replicate every tone. Take a photo of a multicolor wallpaper. Should have as many colors as you can find. Then take the photo raw + jpeg. Leave the jpeg on monochrome and standard settings. 

now load the jpeg from the camera (not the M11 but say an M10), and the RAW and try to match it perfectly to the jpeg. Let me know how it goes. Every tone should match. 

JPEGs from an M10 in monochrome are so good you can just use them as is. Saves time editing a raw. Not as easy as just clicking the monochrome switch on Lightroom. 

Not my typical (only) set up, for all my cameras (various makes). I have only shot RAW for a couple of decades as I said. I want a versatile file which I can adjust as I want it. I have no interest in out of camera JPEGs because I am quite happy to work on a pure RAW workflow. 

[hdmesa]

I work with the DNGs 95% of the time, but getting JPEGs that have such abrupt tonal transitions is irritating.

For subject with complex backgrounds, the M11 B&W JPEGs can be fine, but when there is one tonal transition over another (lens vignetting over a blue sky gradient for example), they don't look right. M11 color JPEGs don't have this issue.

Comparing DNG converted to JPEG in C1 vs SOOC JPEG (ignore the crap content, I was just testing)

 

JPEG made from the DNG – sky tonal transitions look correct:

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SOOC JPEG – WTF is up with the abrupt transition in the sky that arches across the frame? It looks like I'm looking at the scene through a peephole, lol:

Edited May 13, 2022 by hdmesa

[hdmesa]

 

[SrMi]

1 hour ago, Leicaphile said:

I think what makes photos unique isn’t the color or B&W tweaking. Gilden and Elliot used the same camera and film. Their tonality probably look almost exactly the same (I haven’t checked their photos carefully so this is just me saying). Their style and approach is what made it different, not their film processing. 

I get it. Do it in the luminance panel. That would require me to load the raw in my desktop which I never use, and then open the picture in Camera Raw (because I don’t have Lightroom) and start editing this thing to match what the camera already gave me.

I would rather start with a really great B&W SOOC jpeg and then adjust for exposure, highlights, little contrast, whatever and it’s done. 🤷🏻‍♂️

I never said shoot in jpeg and forget raw. I use the jpeg rarely. Only for B&W because I don’t need to bother editing it. The raw is still there. 
 

There’s no room for shitty JPEGs on a Leica M. That’s all there is to it.

Most of well known film photographers did a lot of post processing when printing (mainly complex dodge and burn), or they hired specialists who did it for them according to their specific instructions (HCB).

You leave a lot of image potential on the table if you do not post process your image. However, everyone should enjoy photography in their own ways.

[SrMi]

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1 hour ago, Cupbest said:

I also like to tweak the JPEG in B&W instead of starting from RAW. The B&W JPEG, if good from the start, saves a lot of editing time. 

You cannot simulate filters if you start with a B&W JPG file. Starting with color RAW files, you have more B&W adjustment possibilities (Black & White Mix Panel in LrC).

Edited May 14, 2022 by SrMi

[hdmesa]

6 minutes ago, SrMi said:

The Fuji JPGs are also much better than on a Hasselblad or Phase One 😄. 

Even Canon's current B&W JPEGs on the R5 are really great because they have an option for red filter emulation, which like the Fujifilm red filter sim, it reduces blue/cyan.

[elmars]

Please try the white balance slider btw use both cameras in the same light situation.

I am sceptic if there is a Leica look at all. I think it is a myth. I once photographed the same person with a M262 and a Olympus OM-somewhat. No eye catching differences in color. 

[LocalHero1953]

31 minutes ago, FlyingDavid said:

It's very hard to say that M11 has a real 'Leica Look‘ for me. 

Look at the pictures below first, pls

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These are 'Leica Looks' for me.......sorry, it's not M11, it's M240P....these were all caught by my M240P.

 

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Something strange is happening here....

 

 

 

These were captured by Leica M11....

The Leica look? My God...No, absolutely not.

It's the standard SONY LOOK...Sorry to say that.

Looks like Key0fG has returned. Yawn 

[jaapv]

Whatever Leica look there is or not is in the lenses, not the camera. You can process the files to have whatever look you like. 
it is basic and obvious that the M11 files will look flatter than the M240 ones- the M11 has a far higher DR. So process them accordingly. 

[SrMi]

I would not bother responding to controversial posts if the author has less than 10 posts. The probability that we are dealing with a troll is high.

[Olaf_ZG]

On 5/19/2022 at 7:22 PM, SrMi said:

I would not bother responding to controversial posts if the author has less than 10 posts. The probability that we are dealing with a troll is high.

Fair. But it is an interesting question. Is the Leica look (if any) caused due to camera or due to its lenses? Or a combination?

One of the first M images I took was just a girl waiting for the tram, but the rendering of the old leica lens (and its glow) totally got me hooked. 

Personally I believe the look is due to its lenses, but then VL has some great looks as well. May be they managed to copy the look? 
 

There is sth I like, yet I am not yet sure what is the cause. The lens? Maybe ccd? Can’t judge the m11 as I don’t have it…

Edited May 20, 2022 by Olaf_ZG

[jdlaing]

On 5/19/2022 at 12:22 PM, SrMi said:

I would not bother responding to controversial posts if the author has less than 10 posts. The probability that we are dealing with a troll is high.

I remember when you had less than ten posts. 

[jaapv]

If somebody can explain precisely to me what the Leica Look is, I’ll happily produce it with another brand camera, another brand lens, and both.

[lct]

44 minutes ago, Olaf_ZG said:

Is the Leica look (if any) caused due to camera or due to its lenses? Or a combination?

Simple. Shoot a Real Leica Man and watch the photo. This is the Leica Look.

[Alberti]

On 5/19/2022 at 7:10 PM, jaapv said:

Whatever Leica look there is or not is in the lenses, not the camera. You can process the files to have whatever look you like. 
it is basic and obvious that the M11 files will look flatter than the M240 ones- the M11 has a far higher DR. So process them accordingly. 

I do not agree, sorry. The way a sensor handles the capture, the RAW processing, so much is going on in rendering, so many choices made. Over time I have come to like my M8 look (only with the IR filter) and M240 look very much. Others (like you) like their M9. It is for a specific quality. And that quality is a deliberate concoction. I note newer camera's tend a bit to coolness; oh well 🥲. One has to learn how to handle that.

• If there is no Leica-look to a camera, to the images created, what is Leica for on the market?

[SrMi]

46 minutes ago, jdlaing said:

I remember when you had less than ten posts. 

Everyone starts small, but very few start controversy or act aggressively in those first 10 posts. 

[anickpick]

vor 24 Minuten schrieb jaapv:

If somebody can explain precisely to me what the Leica Look is, I’ll happily produce it with another brand camera, another brand lens, and both.

Good luck 😉

(good old M240)

 

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Edited May 20, 2022 by anickpick

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Hallo,

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[jaapv]

I would indeed count myself lucky if somebody could define the Leica Look for me. As for the influence of the sensor: the idea of  Leica Look dates from before the digital era. How can a sensor be the determining factor  if it can be created on Kodachrome, Tri X and any other film?