DxOMark tested M11

[jaapv]

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15 hours ago, nicci78 said:

Fun fact : Canon and Leica used to trash DXOMark. But not anymore. 
It was easy to shoot down the messenger when your sensor tech lagged behind everyone else. 
Now that they caught up, they are happy to let DXO tests their sensors. 
 

Canon upped its game and Leica joined the competition by buying Sony Semi sensors. 

Leica has been using Sony sensors since 2003... with the Digilux2, designed in cooperation with Panasonic and manufactured by Matsushita. All Leica APS cameras have Sony sensors since 2009. So it is hardly the way you suggest.

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[nicci78]

Obviously Leica were ok to use Sony for smaller size sensor.

But not at for full frame 24x36 and pseudoMF aka 30x45. 

Who knows actually why Leica bothered to developed for its own use subpar sensors ? M9, M typ 240, Q, SL, M10, Q2, SL2. 
Good sensor but Sony did better at the time. 
Leica finally catch up with excellent M10-R and M10 Monochrom. But for another weird reason abandoned it only 18 months later for more Sony sensors. 
It is clear since SL2-S and now M11 that using Sony Semi sensors should have been the obvious choice for years ! So many years lost. So many unnecessary R&D spent. 
 

[FlashGordonPhotography]

3 hours ago, nicci78 said:

Obviously Leica were ok to use Sony for smaller size sensor.

But not at for full frame 24x36 and pseudoMF aka 30x45. 

Who knows actually why Leica bothered to developed for its own use subpar sensors ? M9, M typ 240, Q, SL, M10, Q2, SL2. 
Good sensor but Sony did better at the time. 
Leica finally catch up with excellent M10-R and M10 Monochrom. But for another weird reason abandoned it only 18 months later for more Sony sensors. 
It is clear since SL2-S and now M11 that using Sony Semi sensors should have been the obvious choice for years ! So many years lost. So many unnecessary R&D spent. 
 

Well the SL2, which you call sub par, shares its silicon with the S1R, which scores 100 on DXO Mark. I have both and they are remarkably similar. And I couldn't get extreme banding in images from my SL2 whereas it was not uncommon when really pushing my A7R2 or A7R3 files. The M8 and M9 are known for their stunning black and white conversions.

I don't subscribe to the *sub par* sensor discussions. They are what they are and like every other part of the camera you learn the limitations and go make photographs. Some of my favourite images were made with the M9. A *better* sensor would not make those better images. It's knd of like saying slide film was sub par to colour neg because it had vastly lower DR (less than 6 stops in the case of Velvia).

Absolutely, a sensor with wider DR or lower high ISO noise can make some things easier. I too, choose cameras with high DR, bigger sensors and low noise when shooting large landscapes. But mostly these are things seen by photoraphers and forums. I've never, ever had an image critiqued with, "too bad it's too noisy" except by some muppet on a forum. If what people are noticing in a photo is a lack of DR or some noise then the image had already failed.

Gordon

[nicci78]

DXOMark did not test SL2. However Q2 score noticeably lower than Lumix S1R. With the same sensor. 

Please keep in mind that lots of factors makes a particular sensor better in a given body : stack filters in front of it and the processor behind it. So SL2 is not equal to Q2 which is not equal to S1R. 

Sadly DXOMARK seems not interested to test every Leica cameras. For exemple no CL and no SL2. 
 

 

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[FlashGordonPhotography]

On 5/6/2022 at 3:56 PM, nicci78 said:

DXOMark did not test SL2. However Q2 score noticeably lower than Lumix S1R. With the same sensor. 

Please keep in mind that lots of factors makes a particular sensor better in a given body : stack filters in front of it and the processor behind it. So SL2 is not equal to Q2 which is not equal to S1R. 

Sadly DXOMARK seems not interested to test every Leica cameras. For exemple no CL and no SL2. 
 

 

Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here…

Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members!

Is 4 points *noticeably* lower? They seem similar except for about half a stop in high ISO performance. That's within common exposure errors.

How big is DXOs Lattitude for error in measurement? I really have no idea. I don't pay that much attention to these sites as they're not really relevant to my shooting style. Is half a stop within the error margin of measurement?

Gordon

[adan]

55 minutes ago, FlashGordonPhotography said:

Is 4 points *noticeably* lower?

Hey, this is a Leica owners' forum. 0.1 points is "noticeably" lower.

(See also Hans Christian Anderson fairytale of the Princess and the Pea.)

[SrMi]

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9 hours ago, FlashGordonPhotography said:

Is 4 points *noticeably* lower? They seem similar except for about half a stop in high ISO performance. That's within common exposure errors.

How big is DXOs Lattitude for error in measurement? I really have no idea. I don't pay that much attention to these sites as they're not really relevant to my shooting style. Is half a stop within the error margin of measurement?

Gordon

Q2 has a "horrible" score of 96, same as Canon R3 and better than the "horrible" SL2-S (95). Don't get me started on the "mediocre" S5 (94).

🤣

[M11 for me]

vor 8 Minuten schrieb SrMi:

Q2 has a "horrible" score of 96, same as Canon R3 and better than the "horrible" SL2-S (95). Don't get me started on the "mediocre" S5 (94).

🤣

its probably true that there are better sensors. Or do you really doubt that fact? That does not mean that your cameras are bad. It means that there are better ones out there. Buy an M11 then you are on top 🤪

[SrMi]

20 minutes ago, M11 for me said:

its probably true that there are better sensors. Or do you really doubt that fact? That does not mean that your cameras are bad. It means that there are better ones out there. Buy an M11 then you are on top 🤪

Once you have photographed with a camera that has a score of 102 (X1D), it is really hard to "downscore" to a 100 points camera ;-). Of course, just kidding. 

In my experience, Q2 does not have a better sensor than SL2-S, even though the score seems to say so.

[LocalHero1953]

43 minutes ago, SrMi said:

In my experience, Q2 does not have a better sensor than SL2-S, even though the score seems to say so.

As an owner of both Q2 and SL2-S, but with zero interest in what DXO has to say about them (because I can see with my own eyes), I can't understand how a single score to rate a sensor can have any credibility. From my limited experience of both cameras (the Q2 only arrived three days ago) the Q2 has higher resolution and the SL2-S has less noise in low light for the same size of final image. How can you present that in a single score and say one is better than the other?

Scores like these are useful for people who don't know what they want and don't trust their own judgement. 

[tashley]

3 hours ago, LocalHero1953 said:

As an owner of both Q2 and SL2-S, but with zero interest in what DXO has to say about them (because I can see with my own eyes), I can't understand how a single score to rate a sensor can have any credibility. From my limited experience of both cameras (the Q2 only arrived three days ago) the Q2 has higher resolution and the SL2-S has less noise in low light for the same size of final image. How can you present that in a single score and say one is better than the other?

Scores like these are useful for people who don't know what they want and don't trust their own judgement. 

The DXO score is not a single score. 

[TeleElmar135mm]

If you have the best tested camera or lens by DXO (or any other test-sites) you can be sure that it is not the fault of the camera or lens, when you make a bad photo  

[LocalHero1953]

25 minutes ago, tashley said:

The DXO score is not a single score. 

Well, no - the landing page in the OP gives 4 scores, including an overall score (which DXO uses on that same page to compare cameras), and a supposed score for three types of scenario, each of which is an aggregate. If you're willing to dig down further. I guess one might find information that might be useful in deciding whether a camera might suit a particular person. I suspect most will not get beyond the single overall score and, as has been well demonstrated in this thread, use it to praise or knock a particular camera.  

[hdmesa]

5 hours ago, LocalHero1953 said:

As an owner of both Q2 and SL2-S, but with zero interest in what DXO has to say about them (because I can see with my own eyes), I can't understand how a single score to rate a sensor can have any credibility. From my limited experience of both cameras (the Q2 only arrived three days ago) the Q2 has higher resolution and the SL2-S has less noise in low light for the same size of final image. How can you present that in a single score and say one is better than the other?

Scores like these are useful for people who don't know what they want and don't trust their own judgement. 

SL2-S crushes my Q2 in extremely dim lighting. High ISO noise on the Q2 is ok in moderate lighting, but when it's nearly dark the noise is pretty bad and sizing down doesn't help much (IMO).

[nicci78]

It’s like a newspaper headlines or today’s click bait title. 
DXOMark score is only click bait. What you should look at is their graph about every categories ! 
They are very informative. 
The score is sadly only based on the print data ! Which gives an enormous advantage to very high pixel counts ! 
A 60MP binned to 8MP can perform as well as a 24MP binned to 8MP !! 
 

However when you cropped a high pixel count sensors. You lose the binning effect. So it still worth to look at the screen data. 
The best sensor is the best on screen data. Not on print. 
However DXO thought otherwise. 
 

So my advice : you never crop ? Look at print. 
You crop a lot ? Look at screen ! 
At print : 40-60-100MP reign supreme. 
But at screen : 24MP are kings. 
 

So pick your poison. 

[nicci78]

By the way we should be glad that DXOMark still exists !! 
Just imagine a world without any technical reviews. 
No benchmark on computers. 
No imatest nor DXOMark reviews by magazine. 
No real road car tests.  Etc… 

No public tests = zero incentive from manufacturers to improve their products. We would have to take their marketing as gospel. 
 

Hopefully tons of websites and magazines are still willing to do their job to inform us. 
 

 

[lct]

Too bad DxO don't rank politicians . 

[SrMi]

1 hour ago, nicci78 said:

It’s like a newspaper headlines or today’s click bait title. 
DXOMark score is only click bait. What you should look at is their graph about every categories ! 
They are very informative. 
The score is sadly only based on the print data ! Which gives an enormous advantage to very high pixel counts ! 
A 60MP binned to 8MP can perform as well as a 24MP binned to 8MP !! 
 

However when you cropped a high pixel count sensors. You lose the binning effect. So it still worth to look at the screen data. 
The best sensor is the best on screen data. Not on print. 
However DXO thought otherwise. 
 

So my advice : you never crop ? Look at print. 
You crop a lot ? Look at screen ! 
At print : 40-60-100MP reign supreme. 
But at screen : 24MP are kings. 
 

So pick your poison. 

P2P also normalizes results to common output (CoC). I think that is the most realistic and useful way to compare (same output size). 

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[M11 for me]

vor 5 Minuten schrieb SrMi:

P2P also normalizes results to common output (CoC). I think that is the most realistic and useful way to compare (same output size). 

Absolutely.

But it seems that many Leica friends here dislike DxO for a reason or another. Not worth correcting wrong statements here 🤢

Edited May 8, 2022 by M11 for me

[LocalHero1953]

As photographers, with our own individual wants and needs, don't you think we should use our own eyes? And if you can't judge with your own eyes, doesn't that say something about where the problem lies?