I’ve now had 3 x sl2 bodies fail.

[AZN]

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5 hours ago, Gavin Cato said:

I'm going to keep a single SL2 for personal use and keep my fave lenses, the 35/2, 50/1.4, 90-280 and sell the rest.

Smart move.

The problem here isn't with the cameras per se, but the after-sales warranty service.  For a professional who relies on their tools, taking more than a week to fix something is unacceptable.  Furthermore, having to send everything to the other side of the world just to "turn a screw" (as it were), is, again, unacceptable.

Back in my VR shooting days, 20 years ago, I only used mechanical cameras because I knew that when electronics fail, it was a long trip overseas.  At least with mechanical cameras (Nikon, Hasselblad and Leica), you could find someone in Aust. who could fix the thing.

BTW my Sony 7R2 got bricked when I did a firmware update in June 2017.  Took 2 months to get the camera back from the Australian repairer in Adelaide.  So it isn't just Leica languidly luxuriating in the joys of sleepy Oz "We don't make or fix anything here because we're a branch-economy" paradigm =/

 

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[LocalHero1953]

4 hours ago, Archiver said:

A few years ago, someone with a software engineering background did an analysis of the X Vario or X113 and discovered code clearly labeled Panasonic in the AF component. This was reported on the X subforum.

At another time - I wish my memory was more clear about this - either Panasonic or Leica announced they would collaborate more on projects, which was very vague. I believe this announcement was made before the X Vario was released, although I could be mistaken.

It's intriguing to note that the bugbear of Panasonic, contrast detection autofocus, is also present in all Leica mirrorless and compact cameras.

Edit: I've found a few posts. @barjohn looked at the EXIF data in X Vario files and found several references to Panasonic_Leica, as seen here:

https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/208175-anybody-switched-from-m-to-x-vario-experiences/?do=findComment&comment=2453496

https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/208175-anybody-switched-from-m-to-x-vario-experiences/?do=findComment&comment=2453502

 

 

Sure, but outsourcing subsystem electronic components and embedded s/w is not the same as saying that a Leica SL is "much the same as the corresponding Panasonic bodies", which is the comment I was responding to. There weren't any corresponding Panasonic bodies.

[Gavin Cato]

3 hours ago, AZN said:

2017.  Took 2 months to get the camera back from the Australian repairer in Adelaide.  So it isn't just Leica languidly luxuriating in the joys of sleepy Oz "We don't make or fix anything here because we're a branch-economy" paradigm =/

Yeah that’s a huge reason why I’m trying canon first. I live near Wollongong and CPS is at Alexandria. If I have a failure I can drive up there to drop the gear off and get a loaner on the spot. 

[tom0511]

vor 9 Stunden schrieb Gavin Cato:

.......

I'm going to keep a single SL2 for personal use and keep my fave lenses, the 35/2, 50/1.4, 90-280 and sell the rest.

 

Which system will you use instead in the future for your porefessional needs? The R5 or something different?

[BernardC]

9 hours ago, beewee said:

It wouldn’t surprise me if much of the electrical and software design is contracted out to Panasonic and other third parties with Leica’s in-house software development primarily focused on the imaging pipeline and UI and leaving all the other peripheral components like SD card access, USB, charging, WiFi, etc… to their contractors

That's not unusual in any way. Common sub-systems like USB, SD, WiFi, Bluetooth, etc., are procured from suppliers. These conform to standard APIs. Back in the day every peripheral had its own driver. Remember when something as simple as a mouse came with a driver disk? Some gaming mouses (mice?) still require specialized drivers, but generic ones do not.

This is beneficial to everyone, especially consumers. Imagine if every WiFi-compatible device in your life used it's own implementation of WiFi! Nothing would ever work reliably, and devices would be much more expensive because they would all need armies of coders whose only job would be to continuously re-invent the wheel.

[LBJ2]

5 hours ago, Gavin Cato said:

Yeah that’s a huge reason why I’m trying canon first. I live near Wollongong and CPS is at Alexandria. If I have a failure I can drive up there to drop the gear off and get a loaner on the spot. 

I shoot Leica and Sony. If you are still considering the Sony A1 to add to your pro kit, do check out Sony Pro Support Program for your area. I've been with Sony's program since inception with excellent service to include loaners and for me a few over the top surprise support services. 

https://prosupportprogram.sonyanz.com/home

I do wonder why Leica doesn't offer something similar particularly for their pro-oriented SL system. At a minimum, a loaner service for verified professionals would have helped your situation greatly. 

P.S. IMO no other mirrorless system looks and feels like the sublime SL2 and SL lenses. Sony, Canon, Nikon, Panasonic all have that utilitarian look and feel. Each are packed with technology hence the endless menus and customizable buttons all over their camera. Just a different approach. 

Edited April 12, 2022 by LBJ2

[laowai_]

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12 hours ago, beewee said:

That’s interesting but also not surprising.

Yes, it is common practice that companies buy, sell, co-develop, share and cross-license IP (intellectual property).

Even and particularly very expensive hardware, like custom-built chips, that are advertised as ‘in house design’ typically contain many ‘IP cores’ (i.e. building blocks) that are sourced from internal or external parties (collaborators, specialist design housed, competitors, etc). We stand on the shoulders of giants.

 

[fotografr]

2 hours ago, LBJ2 said:

 

I do wonder why Leica doesn't offer something similar particularly for their pro-oriented SL system. At a minimum, a loaner service for verified professionals would have helped your situation greatly. 

 

Not just the pro-oriented SL system. I used the Leica M system alongside my Canons and Nikons throughout most of my pro career. I was a registered Leica Pro for a long time but my impression is that they dropped the program. While it existed I got very fast turnaround on repairs and occasionally even loaners. 

My perception was that a lot of non-pros who had major investments in Leica gear were unhappy about being bumped in the repair queue and their grumbling caused Leica to shut it down.

Edited April 12, 2022 by fotografr

[Ko.Fe.]

2 hours ago, LBJ2 said:

I do wonder why Leica doesn't offer something similar particularly for their pro-oriented SL system.

Because of way too small footprint on cameras market. Especially pro.

I meet only one pro so far who is using LCAG cameras for living. Not SL, but M. He has to keep some spares ones, not just one. And he is not in country I live in. Where I'm here is no LCAG service at all. G7 country...

We have huge, multistory Canon building with real service. Every time I want to buy another LCAG camera, I just gave up due to absence of any service here. Most of the pros I have seen here are with Canon, Nikon.

Going to first sport event after 2+ years of restrictions. Will be interesting to see, if any shift in photo pro gear.

[Ko.Fe.]

11 hours ago, AZN said:

Smart move.

The problem here isn't with the cameras per se, but the after-sales warranty service.  For a professional who relies on their tools, taking more than a week to fix something is unacceptable.  Furthermore, having to send everything to the other side of the world just to "turn a screw" (as it were), is, again, unacceptable.

Back in my VR shooting days, 20 years ago, I only used mechanical cameras because I knew that when electronics fail, it was a long trip overseas.  At least with mechanical cameras (Nikon, Hasselblad and Leica), you could find someone in Aust. who could fix the thing.

BTW my Sony 7R2 got bricked when I did a firmware update in June 2017.  Took 2 months to get the camera back from the Australian repairer in Adelaide.  So it isn't just Leica languidly luxuriating in the joys of sleepy Oz "We don't make or fix anything here because we're a branch-economy" paradigm =/

 

Looks like Canon might have normal service in Australia.

I just checked and they have same form as we have here to ship gear locally for service.

https://www.canon.com.au/support/service-and-repair-form-pop

[PBart]

There are so many things to check into here. If you bought all of your SL2s from the same store and at the same time, it could be a faulty part that is causing this. Kind of like Leica's S-System lens issues with the motors failing. I had 4 lenses repaired for the same reason and it didn't matter because they replaced the motors with new faulty motors. It became truly fixed when they resolved the manufacturing issue or design of the motors. 

I now have two SL2 cameras and so far doing ok. I'm a commercial photographer shooting mostly food and hospitality. I also use the SL2s for video. Sometimes I get a weird hangup but  it often clears with popping out the battery and reinserting.

Sometimes something odd causes the issue that you would never have thought. I couldn't connect at all while using Capture One tethered a few weeks ago. Turns out that it doesn't connect if your SD card is filled up to a certain point. Once I put in some reformatted cards, all was good.

I'd start with the SD cards. The fastest Sandisks you can get.

I assume the batteries are rather new but I did have issues with a Leica S 006 with batteries not working up to spec. Once Leica sent me new batteries, the cameras worked fine again. Try swapping batteries around to see if different results. I like to number my batteries so I can keep track. Some people are using a 3rd party battery charger for Leica that offers more features, not sure if that is factor for your situation. Messed up batteries can be a big problem.

Can't say I like the customer service with Leica. Over the last 8 yrs I had to send 2 bodies and 6 lenses to Leica for repair. Usually 2-4 months until I get anything back. My last repair was late last year I complained to every person at Leica I could get hold of. I'm sure I'm a pain their butts. They managed to get my repair done within a month. That was expedited service for Leica. Ug. 

I love the lenses, the menu layouts, the feel and quality of Leica .... when all is working. Kind of like having an Aston Martin that breaks down every 10,000 miles. Lovely when it works though.  

 

[LBJ2]

1 hour ago, fotografr said:

Not just the pro-oriented SL system. I used the Leica M system alongside my Canons and Nikons throughout most of my pro career. I was a registered Leica Pro for a long time but my impression is that they dropped the program. While it existed I got very fast turnaround on repairs and occasionally even loaners. 

My perception was that a lot of non-pros who had major investments in Leica gear were unhappy about being bumped in the repair queue and their grumbling caused Leica to shut it down.

Agree, my comment should have included all Leica professionals regardless of the system. Interesting to know there was such a program that no longer exists and your thoughts as to why it was discontinued. hmmm

[LBJ2]

16 minutes ago, PBart said:

There are so many things to check into here. If you bought all of your SL2s from the same store and at the same time, it could be a faulty part that is causing this. Kind of like Leica's S-System lens issues with the motors failing. I had 4 lenses repaired for the same reason and it didn't matter because they replaced the motors with new faulty motors. It became truly fixed when they resolved the manufacturing issue or design of the motors. 

I now have two SL2 cameras and so far doing ok. I'm a commercial photographer shooting mostly food and hospitality. I also use the SL2s for video. Sometimes I get a weird hangup but  it often clears with popping out the battery and reinserting.

Sometimes something odd causes the issue that you would never have thought. I couldn't connect at all while using Capture One tethered a few weeks ago. Turns out that it doesn't connect if your SD card is filled up to a certain point. Once I put in some reformatted cards, all was good.

I'd start with the SD cards. The fastest Sandisks you can get.

I assume the batteries are rather new but I did have issues with a Leica S 006 with batteries not working up to spec. Once Leica sent me new batteries, the cameras worked fine again. Try swapping batteries around to see if different results. I like to number my batteries so I can keep track. Some people are using a 3rd party battery charger for Leica that offers more features, not sure if that is factor for your situation. Messed up batteries can be a big problem.

Can't say I like the customer service with Leica. Over the last 8 yrs I had to send 2 bodies and 6 lenses to Leica for repair. Usually 2-4 months until I get anything back. My last repair was late last year I complained to every person at Leica I could get hold of. I'm sure I'm a pain their butts. They managed to get my repair done within a month. That was expedited service for Leica. Ug. 

I love the lenses, the menu layouts, the feel and quality of Leica .... when all is working. Kind of like having an Aston Martin that breaks down every 10,000 miles. Lovely when it works though.  

 

Do you use Leica SL exclusively for your mostly food and hospitality business? Just curious which are your go to Leica lenses for your food projects? 

[sleuthin1]

I live in Las Vegas where it's quite hot.  And I shoot with two SL2 bodies + SL lenses for documentary work.  I've even shot a few sporting events with the system.  Both genres are demanding on any camera system. I've been using the system for two years now and I've never had a System Failure as you've described.  Now, I've had a lens failure system (Lens Not Communicating) error that required I send my SL 16-35 back to Germany (and they still have it).  But I can appreciate your frustration as I have a love/hate relationship with the SL2, mostly due to the slow autofocus during AFC-High shooting (and tracking sucks), slow buffer speeds, and no back focus button lock.  I've learned to work around those issues.  And every time I get ticked at the camera, it only takes me a minute to look at the files on my computer to make excuses to stay with Leica (humor here).  

[Gavin Cato]

9 hours ago, LBJ2 said:

shoot Leica and Sony. If you are still considering the Sony A1 to add to your pro kit, do check out Sony Pro Support Program for your area. I've been with Sony's program since inception with excellent service to include loaners and for me a few over the top surprise support services. 

I don't mean to turn this into a non leica gear review  but yes I have a a1 and a r5 here, with matching 50mm and 85mm lenses on both. I tried to get a R3 but they are super scarce.

My initial impression is that the sony body is better (no evf blackout, no banding in most indoor lights) but the canon lenses are better (the RF 50/1.2 and 85/1.2 are really top notch).

Both bodies feels average to hold versus the SL2 which I absolutely love the way it feels in the hand.

 

[Gavin Cato]

4 hours ago, sleuthin1 said:

But I can appreciate your frustration as I have a love/hate relationship with the SL2, mostly due to the slow autofocus during AFC-High shooting (and tracking sucks), slow buffer speeds, and no back focus button lock.  I've learned to work around those issues.  And every time I get ticked at the camera, it only takes me a minute to look at the files on my computer to make excuses to stay with Leica (humor here).  

Yeah likewise. Shooting weddings, the lack of good low light af, crappy tracking, the fancy eye/people detect on the canon & sony - these are all things very useful at a wedding shooting people. But I was ok shooting around those as the leica files and lenses are super nice.

ah well.

 

[Photoworks]

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Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members!

[Gavin Cato]

gosh that looks bit familiar. I'm not on Facebook so I can't comment on it. That's exactly what mine is doing.

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Hallo,

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[beewee]

I find it so strange that when the camera gets this error, a power cycle (removing the battery for 10 min) does not resolve this issue. It’s somewhat indicative of one of the following:

• The software is poorly architected and cannot recover from a bad state
• Something caused some memory corruption that over wrote some data - in this case, I would have hoped there would be some kind of factory reset or recovery mode that can be triggered with some special button combination
• There is some genuine hardware failure that caused some built-in self tests to fail when the camera booted up and it then goes into this error state

Edited April 13, 2022 by beewee

[J12]

6 hours ago, Gavin Cato said:

Yeah likewise. Shooting weddings, the lack of good low light af, crappy tracking, the fancy eye/people detect on the canon & sony - these are all things very useful at a wedding shooting people. But I was ok shooting around those as the leica files and lenses are super nice.

ah well.

 

 

I don’t shoot weddings, but other situations where the idea of having those fancy AF crutches might be nice in theory. But as your comment indicates, people / eye and continuous tracking are not necessary. In single point AF-S I find the SL very consistent and highly accurate. MF for situations where it may struggle. It can all be made to work. Decades of amazing photography before AF was even a dream are testament to that.

 

I did not move on from the SL 601 because the camera works well for the majority of my use cases. It has proven to be very reliable out in the field under constant heavy use. Many long days for months on end in all weather conditions and never an issue. So it stays.

 

Just one caveat. Studio tethering where the connection drops, but that is a different topic. 

 

With the SL2 / SL2-S it feels like the uncompromising professional nature of the S system that set the foundations for the original SL 601 has been lost. Or shifted slightly, crossing over into consumer / prosumer territory. 

 

I’m watching the future direction of the SL system, but if it continues to distance itself further from the principles of the professional S system I may reconsider my options.

 

Ideally there would be a more robust and durable SL pro camera body for those that need it, and a smaller more consumer / prosumer orientated L-mount body for those that want it. Especially if the TL2 / CL are end of the line as speculated.

 

Good luck!

Edited April 13, 2022 by J12