Purchase an M11 or an M10-R…?

[DG_MP]

Advertisement (gone after registration)

In a position to purchase my first digital M series camera and am wondering which camera, the M11 or the M10R?

Any advice and opinions would be much appreciated.

[Hans-Dieter Gülicher]

Difficult decision! I have the M 10-R since October 2020 and I am happy with it plus APO-Summicron 35 mm (besides of 28 mm, 75 mm and adapted Vario-R 21-35 mm). From my point of view I do not need the new M11 features. But`s easy to say as I have the relatively new M10.

Hans

[Advertisement]

The Leica Q3 is available for pre-order at B&H Photo Video and Adorama

[Kwesi]

Here in the US they are both the same price when purchased new. 
In that case I would buy the M11. 

[Knipsknecht]

… and if it’s okay for you to buy used, since the M11 is available the prices for used M10-r dropped significantly. I couldn’t resist and bought an almost new M10-r a few weeks ago and saved about 2.200€ here in Germany.

But well, you have to decide for yourself if you really need the features of the M11. 

[mustafasoleiman]

I have both and an M10R for sale... I got the M11 mainly because the black version is 130g lighter which is important to me... 

Image quality is the same and a couple thousand coins are a big difference!

 

Alex

[kona]

I was in exactly the same spot (have an M6 TTL, was looking for my first digital M), and it was not an easy decision. In the end, I ordered an M11 that I am currently waiting for. In the meantime, the Leica store was very kind to lend me an M10-P until the M11 arrives.

M10-R pros:

- lower price. I would be happy to get second hand, if you want to buy new then price is pretty much identical.

- shutter. I don't like what they've done with the M11 where they took out the meter from the shutter and it has to stay open all the time. I think it is quite inelegant that every time you take a picture the shutter has to close, open, close, and then open again. Also adds to the noise, delay, and the shutter will wear out prematurely. I suspect this is something the Leica will add back in a future version, maybe M11-P?

- bottom plate. This is subjective, but I quite like it

M11 pros:

- sensor. And it's not just the resolution, but also dynamic range & high ISO performance.

- high resolution display, also seemed brighter to me

- Visoflex 2. Yes you can use the Visoflex 2 in the M10-R, but you will still get the lower resolution of the original Visoflex, so no point.

- longer battery life

- electronic shutter, but it has limited use due to the slow read out time

- multi-point metering - not a huge benefit, I don't have any issues with the centre weighted metering of the M10-P

- USB-C, 64GB built in flash memory. Personally I have no use for these

 

So for me it came down to whether the improved sensor, display and EVF was worth the slightly annoying shutter behaviour and higher price, and for me the answer was (barely) yes. I don't think you can go wrong with either camera.

[Guest]

Advertisement (gone after registration)

6 hours ago, DG_MP said:

In a position to purchase my first digital M series camera and am wondering which camera, the M11 or the M10R?

Any advice and opinions would be much appreciated.

What I thought I was getting when I first ordered the M11 (disclaimer: still waiting to receive it):

1. Improved IQ: I have the M10-P, didn't buy M10-R because "not enough improvement"; was hoping to get more pixels, better DR, higher color resolution, better low light performance (vs. both M10s)
2. more "travel proof": Carrying a Leica charger, multiple batteries, repeated issues with rangefinder adjustment (first two after 20-30 days of active camera use each), lighter (was going to buy black M11 first, changed my mind later)
3. better workflow: A faster, working connection to my iPhone and iPad, with more reliable and faster pairing protocol
4. more shooting options: Again don't have M11 yet, but will explore tethered shooting (to my iPhone) e.g. to put the camera on a Platypod or table top tripod and use it as a convenient "disconnected viewfinder"
5. improved Visoflex: I am getting older, my eyes are failing, I love to shoot my Noctilux wide open ...
6. better handling: I use a tripod maybe a quarter of the time; the new Leica grip with built-in Arca Swiss plate looks like a great simplification.
7. A unique path that exists really only with Leica M to standardize on shared handling, batteries, etc. once I buy an M11-M (I will likely buy a monochrome at some point in the next years, changing to M11 body now "future proofs" that "one system" option a bit)

 

What seems to be the case after some people looked more closely at actual production samples:

1. M11 IQ comparison with M10-R doesn't seem to indicate a clear winner: There is improved effective resolution on center pixels with M11, less noise with long exposures, slightly better exposure recovery. Worse than M10-R: Low light performance (see Mathphotographer YouTube), worse effective corner resolution (at least with the M-Summicron APO 35mm, see reidreviews.com, paid site), worse AWB (magenta is your friend), more pronounced purple fringes (seems to be BSI sensor related, not just M11).

2. The selling points of the overall improved ergonomics of the M11 still strongly apply. One change vs. when I first ordered the M11: I am still not convinced that the black M11 will not show much more wear and tear in the long run. I would like to preserve resell value if and when I decide to upgrade to a future M camera. Ergo changed order to silver, still waiting (another downside of silver, black seems to be more readily available).

3. Outch. "M11 bugs". Hope this will eventually work as seamlessly as I hope. Leica doesn't have the best track record, never fixed all the issues with M10-P, but at least with M11 seems to pay more attention/greater commitment (e.g. obtaining Apple certification). Also a downer on the workflow are current Capture One 22 image quality issues (missing pixels) with M11 - this could potentially be improved, but cannot really predict when and if. At least Lightroom Classic has this figured out extremely well and delivers the highest possible pixel-level quality from M11 DNGs that I expect can be achieved.

4. (same as 3. - needs to work reliably to be useful)

5.-7. no change in opinion so far re:better VF

 

In summary:

Coming from M10-P (unlike you) this jump will cost me about $5k to upgrade the body and accessories[. This is borderline foolish, no matter how much disposable income one has. I am doing it because I expect once global travel resumes to get to many places/opportunities to make unique memories with my camera that I don't know I would ever visit again. The M11 is not necessary for this, but I do expect more "keeper images": Ability to crop (1.), more use because more convenient (2.), more opportunities to review and reshoot if necessary (3.), new angles (4.), higher precision for critical framing and sharpness (5.), more tripod shots (6.).

... so despite not all my hopes and expectations coming true, I haven't cancelled my order and looking forward to the day I receive my M11.

Edited March 13, 2022 by Guest

[DG_MP]

25 minutes ago, mzbe said:

What I thought I was getting when I first ordered the M11 (disclaimer: still waiting to receive it):

1. Improved IQ: I have the M10-P, didn't buy M10-R because "not enough improvement"; was hoping to get more pixels, better DR, higher color resolution, better low light performance (vs. both M10s)
2. more "travel proof": Carrying a Leica charger, multiple batteries, repeated issues with rangefinder adjustment (first two after 20-30 days of active camera use each), lighter (was going to buy black M11 first, changed my mind later)
3. better workflow: A faster, working connection to my iPhone and iPad, with more reliable and faster pairing protocol
4. more shooting options: Again don't have M11 yet, but will explore tethered shooting (to my iPhone) e.g. to put the camera on a Platypod or table top tripod and use it as a convenient "disconnected viewfinder"
5. improved Visoflex: I am getting older, my eyes are failing, I love to shoot my Noctilux wide open ...
6. better handling: I use a tripod maybe a quarter of the time; the new Leica grip with built-in Arca Swiss plate looks like a great simplification.
7. A unique path that exists really only with Leica M to standardize on shared handling, batteries, etc. once I buy an M11-M (I will likely buy a monochrome at some point in the next years, changing to M11 body now "future proofs" that "one system" option a bit)

 

What seems to be the case after some people looked more closely at actual production samples:

1. M11 IQ comparison with M10-R doesn't seem to indicate a clear winner: There is improved effective resolution on center pixels with M11, less noise with long exposures, slightly better exposure recovery. Worse than M10-R: Low light performance (see Mathphotographer YouTube), worse effective corner resolution (at least with the M-Summicron APO 35mm, see reidreviews.com, paid site), worse AWB (magenta is your friend), more pronounced purple fringes (seems to be BSI sensor related, not just M11).

2. The selling points of the overall improved ergonomics of the M11 still strongly apply. One change vs. when I first ordered the M11: I am still not convinced that the black M11 will not show much more wear and tear in the long run. I would like to preserve resell value if and when I decide to upgrade to a future M camera. Ergo changed order to silver, still waiting (another downside of silver, black seems to be more readily available).

3. Outch. "M11 bugs". Hope this will eventually work as seamlessly as I hope. Leica doesn't have the best track record, never fixed all the issues with M10-P, but at least with M11 seems to pay more attention/greater commitment (e.g. obtaining Apple certification). Also a downer on the workflow are current Capture One 22 image quality issues (missing pixels) with M11 - this could potentially be improved, but cannot really predict when and if. At least Lightroom Classic has this figured out extremely well and delivers the highest possible pixel-level quality from M11 DNGs that I expect can be achieved.

4. (same as 3. - needs to work reliably to be useful)

5.-7. no change in opinion so far re:better VF

 

In summary:

Coming from M10-P (unlike you) this jump will cost me about $5k to upgrade the body and accessories[. This is borderline foolish, no matter how much disposable income one has. I am doing it because I expect once global travel resumes to get to many places/opportunities to make unique memories with my camera that I don't know I would ever visit again. The M11 is not necessary for this, but I do expect more "keeper images": Ability to crop (1.), more use because more convenient (2.), more opportunities to review and reshoot if necessary (3.), new angles (4.), higher precision for critical framing and sharpness (5.), more tripod shots (6.).

... so despite not all my hopes and expectations coming true, I haven't cancelled my order and looking forward to the day I receive my M11.

I appreciate the length of your reply detailing your rationale for choosing the M11. 
 

Based off your personal reasons I’m swaying probably towards the M10-R 

[M11 for me]

Do you know this? Its not so evident at all . . .

 

 

[DG_MP]

1 hour ago, kona said:

I was in exactly the same spot (have an M6 TTL, was looking for my first digital M), and it was not an easy decision. In the end, I ordered an M11 that I am currently waiting for. In the meantime, the Leica store was very kind to lend me an M10-P until the M11 arrives.

M10-R pros:

- lower price. I would be happy to get second hand, if you want to buy new then price is pretty much identical.

- shutter. I don't like what they've done with the M11 where they took out the meter from the shutter and it has to stay open all the time. I think it is quite inelegant that every time you take a picture the shutter has to close, open, close, and then open again. Also adds to the noise, delay, and the shutter will wear out prematurely. I suspect this is something the Leica will add back in a future version, maybe M11-P?

- bottom plate. This is subjective, but I quite like it

M11 pros:

- sensor. And it's not just the resolution, but also dynamic range & high ISO performance.

- high resolution display, also seemed brighter to me

- Visoflex 2. Yes you can use the Visoflex 2 in the M10-R, but you will still get the lower resolution of the original Visoflex, so no point.

- longer battery life

- electronic shutter, but it has limited use due to the slow read out time

- multi-point metering - not a huge benefit, I don't have any issues with the centre weighted metering of the M10-P

- USB-C, 64GB built in flash memory. Personally I have no use for these

 

So for me it came down to whether the improved sensor, display and EVF was worth the slightly annoying shutter behaviour and higher price, and for me the answer was (barely) yes. I don't think you can go wrong with either camera.

Thank you for your reply. That’s fantastic service from Leica giving you a loaner. Mind me asking which store? I wonder if thats still something they offer.

I do like the 64GB internal memory, the cable syncing, longer battery life but that’s about all I think I’d want to see in the M10R, as a hobbyist it’s sufficient I think. 

[Guest]

3 hours ago, kona said:

So for me it came down to whether the improved sensor, display and EVF was worth the slightly annoying shutter behaviour and higher price, and for me the answer was (barely) yes. I don't think you can go wrong with either camera.

I would say this is the headline for many M10-M11 upgrade decisions "barely yes". You nailed it!

[setuporg]

Here's a good review by @Overgaard: 

 

[M Journey]

 

The M11 is a better overall camera vs the M10-R.  That said, here are the reasons I see to get the M10-R over an m11:

1.  If you are willing to buy used, you can save a few thousand dollars if you can find a good deal on a m10-r.   Since you are debating which one to get, that means that your total budget is enough for a new m11.  The savings can be put toward a nice lens and most everyone would agree that a m10-r and a lens upgrade > m11 by itself. 

2.  You want a special edition m10r.  the m11 special editions won't be coming for a few years so if you are lusting after a black paint or reporter, then the m10r is the only way to go now.  A big part of the Leica experience is how the camera makes you want to go out and shoot more, and to some (most? all?), the look of the camera is a big part of this.  

3.  You need a camera soon.  Depending on your resourcefulness, it may take a while to get a m11 (if you want it bad enough, you could locate one in less than a week as many people have proven).  If you are the type of person who only puts your name on the list at your local shop, it could be 6 months to a year before you get a m11.  Thats a lot of time you could be shooting with a m10-r.

4.  You really hate the idea of 60 mpx (but for some reason are more than happy with 40...), really want the bottom plate, or have some other bias toward a feature in favor of the m10-r and against the m11.  

 

Here are the features I value on the m11 that aren't on the m10-r:

1.  Being able to customize the exposure wheel to also adjust ISO.

2.  Bigger battery.  I have yet to go under 25% on a single day of shooting.  Probably not even under 40% (I think the one time it was lower was when the battery wasn't at full to start the day).

3.  60mpx.  I like the resolution.  I have yet to use the other resolutions but am not one of those that ding a camera for having features I personally don't like.

4.  Native 64 iso.  Great for sunny days and shooting into the sun.

5.  Lack of the bottom plate.  I like being able to take out my battery and memory card quickly.  This is my first Leica so I don't have any nostalgia towards the removable base plate.

6.  Sensor metering.  I'm a novice to photography so more accurate metering is helpful to me.

7.  Visoflex 2.  Beyond the upgraded resolution and blackout times (a given since the visoflex 020 is so many years older), I like the shape of this more and the fact that it is made of metal.  Looking at pictures of the visoflex 020 it always looks so awkward to me on a m body.  

8.  Internal 64gb.  Good piece of mind to know that if my memory card fails I will still have the majority (if not all) of my day's photos still intact. 

 

My first Leica was the m11 (minus the month I had with a loaner m10-p which the Leica stores let me use since I bought my first lens a month before the m11 launch).  I came into Leica with the notion to purchase a camera that I could keep on more easily and would use for a long time.   I didn't consider buying a m10-r because if this was my first entry into Leica, I wanted to get the best I could.  As much as I wanted the analog experience of a Leica m, I didn't see any reason to give up other technological advances.  I didn't want to buy used.

If I already had the m10-r, I wouldn't think of upgrading to the m11.  If I had GAS, or a need to burn 3-4k (real cost of trading the m10-r and getting new accessories), I would get a new lens or go on a trip somewhere.  

In your case, since you are considering both, I would consider which you would value more, a m11 and a lesser lens, or a m10-r and a better lens.  Depending on the lens you are replacing/upgrading, one choice is better than the other.  If purchasing a m11 or m10-r does not affect a lens choice at all, then I suggest you get the m11.  Sure you could save 2k or so by getting a used m10-r now, but in 5 years, the m11 will have 2k more value over the m10-r so it evens out at the end.  You also have a larger chance of lusting after a m11 after purchasing a m10-r than vice versa (Don't see anyone trying to trade in their m11 for a m10-r....).

 

 

[Guest]

1 hour ago, M Journey said:

In your case, since you are considering both, I would consider which you would value more, a m11 and a lesser lens, or a m10-r and a better lens.  Depending on the lens you are replacing/upgrading, one choice is better than the other.  If purchasing a m11 or m10-r does not affect a lens choice at all, then I suggest you get the m11.  Sure you could save 2k or so by getting a used m10-r now, but in 5 years, the m11 will have 2k more value over the m10-r so it evens out at the end.  You also have a larger chance of lusting after a m11 after purchasing a m10-r than vice versa (Don't see anyone trying to trade in their m11 for a m10-r....).

 

 

... in the hypothetical case of "M11 with lesser lens", the 60MP nominal resolution would make even less sense?

Arguably with e.g. highest performing Voigtlander Apo Lanthar 35 and 50mm available for around $1k-ish (new), I don't even know given the order of magnitude of purchase price for either M10-R or M11 that the "lesser lens due to financial constraints" scenario even exists in reality, if one were to chose wisely?

Edited March 14, 2022 by Guest

[M Journey]

39 minutes ago, mzbe said:

... in the hypothetical case of "M11 with lesser lens", the 60MP nominal resolution would make even less sense?

Arguably with e.g. highest performing Voigtlander Apo Lanthar 35 and 50mm available for around $1k-ish (new), I don't even know given the order of magnitude of purchase price for either M10-R or M11 that the "lesser lens due to financial constraints" scenario even exists in reality, if one were to chose wisely?

 

I was assuming the scenario that the savings from getting a used m10-r over a m11 would help purchase a new lens or upgrade a current lens/lens collection.  For people who are using Voitlander lenses this isn't a big concern since the lenses are so cheap to begin with (but still high quality).  Usually this applies to those who prefer Leica lenses.  upgrading from an old lens to a more modern Leica lens can be quite expensive and 2-4k can be a big help here.  

When talking about lenses, choosing wisely and choosing Leica are usually at opposite ends of the spectrum.  There are those that are perfectly happy with non-Leica lenses and they benefit from having a wider range of lenses available to them for the same budget.  Then there are those that prefer Leica lenses, and if you are one of these people and have a limited budget, then making smart choices about gear is prudent.

I fall in the latter group.  I would prefer to have less lenses choices and keep them all Leica over having a lot of non-Leica lenses.  I already have a mirrorless camera and a wide range of lenses.  I only have one Leica m body and one Leica lens.  The latter gives me much more satisfaction and is the one I carry with me these days.  

[opera207]

M11 has better LCD, WIFI, BATTERY, HIGH/LOW ISO, USB-C+CABLE, FUNCTION BUTTONS;

Worse SHUTTER SOUND, WAKE IP TIME, BUGGY FIRMWARE

 

Edited March 14, 2022 by opera207

[Tailwagger]

2 hours ago, M Journey said:

In your case, since you are considering both, I would consider which you would value more, a m11 and a lesser lens, or a m10-r and a better lens.

I think you summed things up nicely.  While I get where you're coming from on the above, and being a bit of a lux lover I hesitate to admit it, but quite often more $$$ equates to faster not necessarily better, depending on how you define the term.  If shallow depth or field or bokeh balls float your boat, you are indeed going to have reach a bit, nay, quite a bit, deeper into your back pocket to make that happen. OTOH, if all you intend to do is shoot street and zone focus, you can just as easily mistakenly go overboard spending optical $$$ as you can on the body.  In fact, far more easily.  OTOH, while bodies come and go, glass is forever. 

16 hours ago, DG_MP said:

In a position to purchase my first digital M series camera and am wondering which camera, the M11 or the M10R?

I own both; the R sits quietly on the shelf these days. If I were forced to choose between the two at this point, I'd go M11 100% of the time. But it's still early days and the M11 is by no means perfect, at least yet.  There are a dozen or more little things it does better than the R, and to be fair, a few it does worse, but taken as a whole it is a step forward. In the end, both deliver.  But I'm compelled to mention that if this is your first M (you said "first digital M" so perhaps you've had previous experience with a film M?), if you can put the notion of excess pixel count to one side and can cede a stop or so of DR, I'd seriously consider a nice low mileage M10 to start.  You won't lose much coin if you find you need to trade up for the added pixels or decide that digital Ms aren't for you at all. 

[Guest]

1 hour ago, opera207 said:

M11 has better LCD, WIFI, BATTERY, HIGH/LOW ISO, USB-C+CABLE, FUNCTION BUTTONS;

Worse SHUTTER SOUND, WAKE IP TIME, BUGGY FIRMWARE

 

I think the "M11 better at" high ISO claim has been debunked (vs. M10-R, see here - M10-R is clearly less noisy at ISO 6400, see screenshot below). Low ISO (base 64 ISO) - yes, improved with M11. Wifi not sure, when it works seems to be better, but in the "buggy firmware" category reports of Wifi not working reliably all the time (back to the situation for all my Leica cameras ever since Leica introduced Wifi connectivity with the Fotos app) ... 

 

Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here…

Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members!

Edited March 14, 2022 by Guest

[kona]

12 hours ago, DG_MP said:

Thank you for your reply. That’s fantastic service from Leica giving you a loaner. Mind me asking which store? I wonder if thats still something they offer.

I do like the 64GB internal memory, the cable syncing, longer battery life but that’s about all I think I’d want to see in the M10R, as a hobbyist it’s sufficient I think. 

I don't know if it is a normal service. They just happened to have a second hand M10-P available, and I asked them if it would be possible to buy it and then sell it back when the M11 arrives. I would have been happy even if they charged some fee, so I was very pleasantly surprised when they said they would buy it back for the full price I paid.

 

[Advertisement]

Hallo,

Look here: Interesting Leica gear

[kona]

2 hours ago, mzbe said:

I think the "M11 better at" high ISO claim has been debunked (vs. M10-R, see here - M10-R is clearly less noisy at ISO 6400, see screenshot below). Low ISO (base 64 ISO) - yes, improved with M11. Wifi not sure, when it works seems to be better, but in the "buggy firmware" category reports of Wifi not working reliably all the time (back to the situation for all my Leica cameras ever since Leica introduced Wifi connectivity with the Fotos app) ...

This doesn't look like a good comparison to me. When you have sensors with different resolutions you need to resize to the same output size for the comparison to be meaningful. Otherwise the higher resolution sensor will always be at a disadvantage since you are effectively looking at a larger size image so any issues are magnified.