Problems getting sharp images by 60MP

[SrMi]

Advertisement (gone after registration)

1 minute ago, nicci78 said:

OIS set on Auto = active at 1/30th and slower. Disable at 1/60th and faster. 
If Q2 is set with OIS ON, its OIS can make blurry images at fast shutter speed. 
It is a flaw since original Q. Not corrected in Q2. Leica is well aware of it. Hence the auto setting in Q and Q2. 
 

I have not seen or heard that Q2's OIS causes blurry images at fast shutter speeds. AFAIR, Leica said that the IQ of corners may suffer when OIS is on, therefore they want to turn it on only when needed.

[nicci78]

I’ve got a Q since its launch. Then a Q2. More than 90K photos with them. I can assure you that if you did not disable OIS at higher than 1/60th, OIS can blurred occasionally your image with Q and Q2. 
That’s why Leica introduced its Auto OIS settings.

[Advertisement]

The Leica Q3 is available for pre-order at B&H Photo Video and Adorama

[aristotle]

9 hours ago, lct said:

Incredible... With a soft lens it would be a good pic but with an apo lens??? And i read good people here suggesting to sharpen in PP??? Won't be the M11 anymore if things go on like that but the MBlur

The posted image was significantly down-sampled.  Regardless of whether the image can be sharpened acceptably, any disappointment in the original image will not be a result of motion blur or anything that would be fixed by a faster shutter speed.  I'm not saying that it's not caused by something else related to the M11.  Could be focus, or could be something else...

[lct]

7 minutes ago, aristotle said:

The posted image was significantly down-sampled.  Regardless of whether the image can be sharpened acceptably, any disappointment in the original image will not be a result of motion blur or anything that would be fixed by a faster shutter speed.  I'm not saying that it's not caused by something else related to the M11.  Could be focus, or could be something else...

Only issues i got with the Summicron 50/2 apo is not sharpening but softening on portraits. I have never got soft results like this be it on 10, 12, 24 or 42MP cameras so far. Other causes than the M11 itself with a 50mm lens on a still subject at 1/200s? I have no idea but i begin to wonder how long i will keep the M11 when i receive it... 

[Tailwagger]

1 hour ago, lct said:

Indeed... Are we supposed to be "entirely happy" with a camera needing sharpening in PP really? First time it would happen to me since the 6MP (!) R-D1 in 2004, besides correcting soft lenses...

I'm not sure we should view having to alter the amount of sharpening as different from any other parameter we typically tweak on import.  One of the first things I noticed with the M11 was that I could push sharpening to 100 and not wind up with something as crispy as a chicerone.  It should also be remembered that there is no official LR/CR profile at this point. When that does show up, it's quite possible it will obviate the need to push the slider for yourself. Regardless, as it's harder to go the other way, I actually prefer the ability to control the amount of sharpening applied.  For any troubled by it, they can always create a preset to apply additional default sharpening to M11 files on import. 

[SrMi]

1 hour ago, nicci78 said:

I’ve got a Q since its launch. Then a Q2. More than 90K photos with them. I can assure you that if you did not disable OIS at higher than 1/60th, OIS can blurred occasionally your image with Q and Q2. 
That’s why Leica introduced its Auto OIS settings.

I think I remember a forum member on DPR who insisted on running OIS all the time with Q2, and reported occasionally blurred pictures. I think that is a bug in Leica's OIS implementation, and not the reason for Auto-OIS. I found the following excerpt in my archives:

“Leica acknowledged in a "marketing" video with Stefan Daniel that the optical image stabilization software causes further degradation of the peripheral area of the Q image capture. That is why the default setting is OFF.”

[SrMi]

Advertisement (gone after registration)

2 hours ago, lct said:

Indeed... Are we supposed to be "entirely happy" with a camera needing sharpening in PP really? First time it would happen to me since the 6MP (!) R-D1 in 2004, besides correcting soft lenses...

Which camera's raw does not require sharpening in PP? AFAIK, all raw files are sharpened at a default value at import. That default is typically not optimal.

[lct]

18 minutes ago, SrMi said:

Which camera's raw does not require sharpening in PP? AFAIK, all raw files are sharpened at a default value at import. That default is typically not optimal.

Please don't tell this a guy who's been tweaking pic files for 15+ years. I always let sharpening at default levels when i don't have to correct soft lenses. Suggesting that the soft pic above may be normal gives me the feeling to be taken for an idiot but i suffer perhaps from paranoia...

[SrMi]

2 minutes ago, lct said:

Please don't tell this a guy who's been tweaking pic files for 15+ years. I always let sharpening at default levels when i don't have to correct soft lenses. Suggesting that the soft pic above may be normal gives me the feeling to be taken for an idiot but i suffer perhaps from paranoia...

That is not what I meant to say :). As you say, you sharpen your images as well, you just let the post-processor decide how much.

[lct]

34 minutes ago, SrMi said:

That is not what I meant to say :). As you say, you sharpen your images as well, you just let the post-processor decide how much.

Indeed and the post processor never gives me soft results like this. Problem is not the post processor here but the camera or the photographer if he/she's unable to do better with a 50/2 apo on a still subject at 1/250s. Don't ask me the more plausible alternative i don't want to be accused of bashing the M11 . 

Edited March 31, 2022 by lct

[jaapv]

2 hours ago, lct said:

Please don't tell this a guy who's been tweaking pic files for 15+ years. I always let sharpening at default levels when i don't have to correct soft lenses. Suggesting that the soft pic above may be normal gives me the feeling to be taken for an idiot but i suffer perhaps from paranoia...

I have set my default to zero… I moved away from the hallowed trias: input sharpening-creative sharpening -- output sharpening I.e. compensating for sensor (e.g. AA and Bayer  filter)softness,  demosaicing and interpolation softness -- local sharpening-sharpening to get an optimal print (varies with print size), to no sharpening until the image is finalized and then using an AI sharpening app. Reason: postprocessing is no more than edge contrast enhancing, real sharpening programs are far more sophisticated, using pixel shifting guided by AI. 

[lct]

1 hour ago, jaapv said:

I have set my default to zero… I moved away from the hallowed trias: input sharpening-creative sharpening-output sharpening I.e. compensating for sensor (e.g. AA and Bayer  filter)softness,  demosaicing and interpolation softness -- local sharpening -- sharpening to get an optimal print (varies with print size), to no sharpening until the image is finalized and then using an AI sharpening app. Reason: postprocessing is no more than edge contrast enhancing, real sharpening programs are far more sophisticated, using pixel shifting guided by AI. 

Never felt the need to bother with this in 15+ years but YMMV. What is sure is i will not begin to sharpen in PP with the M11. If this camera proves unable to do at least as well as my M8.2/M240/CL/A7s/A7r2 on this point it will have to find another owner to cherish it better than i can do.

[jaapv]

30 minutes ago, lct said:

Never felt the need to bother with this in 15+ years but YMMV.

Not MM, but general postprocessing technique.  The camera does not "sharpen", you do so by controlling your postprocessing app.
You can read the book: Real Life Image Sharpening by Schewe et al. , but this PDF gives a decent overview. I may add that Jeff Schewe uses Topaz Sharpen AI nowadays instead of Photoshop (and Lightroom) sharpening techniques.
The image making world has moved on.

[jaapv]

On the subject of shutter speed,  motion blur and sensor resolution:  Motion blur is a linear phenomenon, so we must use linear resolution for our calculation. 60 MP is about 60% higher linear resolving than 24 MP - 9528 vs 6000 pixels at the same sensor size - so given the same camera holding technique, the shutter speed should only need to be 60% faster, everything else being equal.

[lct]

1 minute ago, jaapv said:

Not MM, but general postprocessing technique.  You can read the book: Real Life Image Sharpening by Schewe et al. , but this PDF gives a decent overview. I may add that Jeff Schewe uses Topaz Sharpen AI nowadays instead of Photoshop (and Lightroom) sharpening techniques. The image making world has moved on.

Not my world i'm afraid, too artificial for me but again YMMV and the topic at hand has little to do with my PP skills anyway.

 

[jaapv]

Well, reading back, it has drifted that way. Not surprising as one does spend a lot of money hoping to get a sharp end result. 

[harmen]

37 minutes ago, lct said:

Never felt the need to bother with this in 15+ years but YMMV. What is sure is i will not begin to sharpen in PP with the M11. If this camera proves unable to do at least as well as my M8.2/M240/CL/A7s/A7r2 on this point it will have to find another owner to cherish it better than i can do.

I also never felt the need to bother with it, but that approach is only valid if the default settings are satisfactory.  Capture One varies its default settings it seems.  Quickly browsing through a stack of photos I notice that for low ISO, the M11 is typically sharpened at an amount of 130, which is the same as the M240, while the Q2M would be set at 180.  (All else staying the same: Radius 0.8, Threshold 1, Halo Suppression 0).  Once ISO goes up, the amount goes down, Threshold up, and a little grain is added, all by default.  It's a little on the low side, meaning that increasing the amount it usually possible without degrading the image, but I'm personally happy without it.  Does Lightroom have a decent default for the M11?

[lct]

1 hour ago, harmen said:

I also never felt the need to bother with it, but that approach is only valid if the default settings are satisfactory.  Capture One varies its default settings it seems.  Quickly browsing through a stack of photos I notice that for low ISO, the M11 is typically sharpened at an amount of 130, which is the same as the M240, while the Q2M would be set at 180.  (All else staying the same: Radius 0.8, Threshold 1, Halo Suppression 0).  Once ISO goes up, the amount goes down, Threshold up, and a little grain is added, all by default.  It's a little on the low side, meaning that increasing the amount it usually possible without degrading the image, but I'm personally happy without it.  Does Lightroom have a decent default for the M11?

I don't know but ACR does apparently. I'll see this when i receive the camera in one month or two.  

[anickpick]

vor 5 Stunden schrieb lct:

I have no idea but i begin to wonder how long i will keep the M11 when i receive it...

Good news for you: Your "worry period" is going to end the moment you'll start using the M11.

Edited April 1, 2022 by anickpick

[Advertisement]

Hallo,

Look here: Interesting Leica gear

[lct]

1 hour ago, anickpick said:

Good news for you: Your "worry period" is going to end the moment you'll start using the M11.

You don't know this old pain in the neck . What is sure i won't use the M11 the same way as most of you do with your rock solid arms or deep wishful thinkings . 36MP and e-shutter mode with Visoflex on to begin with and i'll see very soon if i keep the camera.