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Problems getting sharp images by 60MP


TrickyMrT

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20 minutes ago, snooper said:

I’ve had no blurry results on the M10M. Let’s say 80% of the shots are as expected. I often go down to a speed eq to 1/F, hand held, no issue.

With the M11 and the 50 APO (+ visoflex 2) maybe 20% are acceptable, and a bit more with the 35 APO. Shutter type on “Hybrid”. So weird.

Weird, yes, and also frustrating and disappointing, I would imagine.  Would you maybe have examples of an acceptable and a not so acceptable result of the same scene?  The one you posted earlier seemed to be fine other than for post processing.  What settings did you use?

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On 2/20/2022 at 9:39 PM, FlashGordonPhotography said:

I'd summarise it as follows, based on my usage.

1. The M11 does not have a shutter shock issue. (I've done a lot of testing in the 1/15 to 1/125 range.)

2. The M11 rewards excellent hand holding technique at higher resolutions so practice and get better.

3. Lower resolutions allow hand holding at slightly lower speeds.

4. If you're not prepared to improve your technique then the M11 is not for you. If you are the M11 is a heap of fun to shoot.

5. Get a Thumbie. Or the grip. Or both if you want at least a stop of handheld improvement. But definitely a Thumbie.

6. Nothing has changed from previous M's at *equivalent* resolutions so buying a M10R isn't going to help much.

Gordon

Yes the Grip is well worth it. With my 135mm (not all the time) I am using a Gitzo GM 4532 Monopod, it is less cumbersome than a tripod and really very versatile. That helps a lot. Also which is  excellent I have added the Manfrotto Xlock: https://www.manfrotto.com/global/move-quick-release-system-mvaqr/ as the Monopod head, the advantage is the battery and card are easily accessible whilst on the Monopod - in my case with the Grip as well.

Edited by idusidusi
Forgot some detail
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On 2/16/2022 at 5:56 AM, TrickyMrT said:

Hi,
Who else has also had issues getting sharp images handheld @ 60MP? 
I'm only to get sharp images at a Shutterspeed of 1/250!

So is 60MP too much for an M system. With my M10 24MP, i can shoot by much lower Shutterspeed 1/30 and get sharp images.

I also tried to reduce it to 18MP, but no difference. 

Is anyone here with the same experience?

 

 

 

 

I haven't had any problems with sharpness, but I've only taken a few photos. Here is a very cropped full resolution segment of a photo taken with the 90 mm f/4 macro and extension tube. I used the VisoFlex to focus. The new one is easier to focus than the one on the M10-R.

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Edited by Wandering Photographer
Add info on how I focused.
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35 minutes ago, Wandering Photographer said:

I haven't had any problems with sharpness, but I've only taken a few photos. Here is a very cropped full resolution segment of a photo taken with the 90 mm f/4 macro and extension tube. I used the VisoFlex to focus. The new one is easier to focus than the one on the M10-R.

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Don't take it personally but this image looks too soft to me. Were you shooting handheld? If so at what shutter speed? Just curious.

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11 hours ago, lct said:

Don't take it personally but this image looks too soft to me. Were you shooting handheld? If so at what shutter speed? Just curious.

No offense taken. It was hand held, outside with a breeze and 1/400 sec, aperture unrecorded late in the day. Just for context, here is the full image at reduced resolution.

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14 minutes ago, Wandering Photographer said:

No offense taken. It was hand held, outside with a breeze and 1/400 sec, aperture unrecorded late in the day. Just for context, here is the full image at reduced resolution.

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Thank you @Wandering Photographer. Perhaps 1/400s was not fast enough for the M11 given the breeze and a bit of camera shake?  Even my old Jupiter-9 seems to beat the Elmar 90/4 macro here so i feel hard to believe that the softness issue comes from the lens. I will redo the test with Elmar macro when i find some time. A7r2 mod, Jupiter 85/2, Leica macro adapter v2, IBIS on, handheld, 1/100s, default sharpening. Details in exif data.

Full frame:

100% crop:

 

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Just checked with Elmar 90/4 apo and Leica macro adapter v2. No problem at all at 42mp so i don't expect any problem with this lens at 60mp either. Only issue is camera shake that i don't have at 1/f with IBIS but sans IBIS better choose 1/(4f) or more for macro works if you can. I don't intend to use the M11 for that, unless it proves less difficult at 36 or 18mp, but for those of you having no mirrorless camera, a simple solution could be to use a tripod or a copy stand for macro as we used to do in the film days. (A7r2 mod, Elmar 90/4 macro, macro adapter v2, IBIS on, handheld, 1/100s, default sharpening. Detail in exif data.)

Full frame:

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100%crop:

 

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Hi all,

I am slightly confused about the different comments. Seems to me everything as is (coming from an M10P)

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this shot was taken in a very dark room setting at 1/24th of a second with 60mp via the following link in full resolution: https://www.dropbox.com/s/7ly6qexr3ojmdof/Photo 04.04.22%2C 21 07 58.jpg?dl=0 

Am I wrong or maybe I only have different expectation wrt sharpness? 

The photo has not been processed etc. - just converted from RAW to JPG. 

Cheers
Julian

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Where you using a WA lens? I have noticed slight camera shake issues with 21mm lenses on my Sony without IBIS but only on closeups. More obvious on telephoto or macro pics in my experience but i cannot answer in the place of M11 users who seem rather in denial mode for now.

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This is my unscientific explanation.

As resolution increases, and with exceptional lenses, out of focus areas are more apparent, especially while in pixel peeping mode. This is why landscape photographers are focus stacking. While f 5.6 or f8 with a 35mm or 50mm lens could once be considered to have a significant zone of focus area, with a 60 megapixel image that zone is apparently narrower.

Today I went for a walk with my M11, no tripod. I am not as steady as most of you since a spinal cord injury 13 years ago. In fact I use hiking poles quite often on walks of any distance off paved paths. I took some pictures handheld using 1/4f shutter speeds. They are unmistakably "sharp" in the zone of focus, which is quite narrow even at f5.6 or f8. The idea that an M11 can't be successfully focused handheld is just not so, even in my case, which is that of a sometimes wobbly 62 year old, even while stooped over.

 

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M11 35-APO ~f8.0

Edited by SoarFM
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Focusing issue? The ground looks sharper than the flowers.

 

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1 hour ago, lct said:

Focusing issue? The ground looks sharper than the flowers.

 

Ok, well maybe you should go to a portion of the frame where the zone of focus occurs. You chose the lower front left corner of the frame, which might have been useful had I been taking a picture of a brick wall. Probably start about 1/3 of the way in is my suggestion.

 

 

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2 hours ago, lct said:

Sorry but i'm just trying to understand. At what subject distance were you focusing? Or were you zone focusing? 

Every time you focus, there is a resulting zone of focus, more commonly referred to as depth of field. I'm sure I confused the discussion by referring to it otherwise.

This whole thread was started on the premise that nothing is in focus when people are trying to shoot handheld with their 60mp camera without IBIS. IBIS buys you a couple stops, that's all, the alternative being using 2 stop higher ISO and a faster shutter speed in place of IBIS has imperceptible or nonexistent impact on the image in almost all situations. Higher resolution requires a steadier hand or a higher shutter speed, that's the bottom line.

I am focusing an M11 handheld and getting sharp results using the range of 28mm-75mm.  I use 1/4f and it works great. Today I used the Visoflex so I could focus with the camera low to the ground. Usually, I just use the rangefinder.

 

 

 

Edited by SoarFM
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The zone of focus you're referring to is not the same if you focused say at 2m or at 5m, right? Assuming you focused at 3m, your zone of acceptable sharpness was between 2m and 7m more or less on the basis of average circle of confusion values. This has nothing to do with IBIS or camera shake of course. At 1/(4f) and 35mm it would be a pity if the M11 was not able to take normally sharp photos. 

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11 hours ago, SoarFM said:

While f 5.6 or f8 with a 35mm or 50mm lens could once be considered to have a significant zone of focus area, with a 60 megapixel image that zone is apparently narrower.

Depth of field isn't affected by sensor resolution.  If you enlarge an image from a 60MP sensor more than you would from a 24 MP sensor, the depth of field will be more compresed.  But that's just a function of how much it was enlarged, not a function of the sensor resolution.  

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Here two samples of the sharpness area.

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Somewhat near to the camera?

Edited by jankap
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17 minutes ago, HansiMustermann said:


I use the M11 like any other M before it. I can't understand much of the discussion here. 

Agree 100%.  I’ve been using M cameras since the M3 and the M11 images  are absolutely beautiful. I have enlargements from hand held usage to 24x36” already that have spectacular detail - comparable to my Hasselblad 100MP camera.  Easy to use, FOTOS works very well and the files are easy to work with. I have found that shutter speeds of 1/2FL at 60MP are quite satisfactory with good technique (I use a Thumbie) — same as I’ve always done.

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