Help me understand....Q2M, why?

[viramati]

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There is no doubt the the monochrome sensors have their advantages and for me the biggest one would be the better high iso performance. This is an area where Leica always seems to have struggled when compared to other brands. the Leica Q2 sensor is pitiful in this respect compared to my Sony's and thus I use them in real low light situations. If money was no object i would certainly have a Q2M

[Guest]

2 hours ago, jaapv said:

Fun factoid: Stick an SD card in with images taken with the Q2 and there is a 90% chance (I was not able to try, not owning the cameras) that it will be in colour ...   

You're right jaapv.......I had a "left over" card from my now gone Q116 and when that's played in the Q2M then the LCD shows the images in colour.........BUT thankfully the EVF stays B&W!

2 hours ago, jaapv said:

However, when simulating colour filters in channels, you will be doing the same thing by "underexposing" one or two colour channels by your sliders, thus introducing a similar disadvantage. In fact, the ISO advantage of the Mono cameras is created by removing the colour filter in front of the sensor. Adding one again in front of the lens will simply bring it back again, but only partly, as only one (or two) channels will be attenuated. As it will leave the resolution advantage by not de-mosaicing intact, the Mono camera will still provide the superior image.

Right again, and frankly there's no real advantage I think for the majority of camera users who would change their colour images into B&W in post-production, this goes for the Q2M as well as the M10-M in my opinion, ( and I have both ).

For B&W "nuts" though the differences are definitely there with the Leica Monochrom cameras and worth the commitment to pure B&W imaging.......and as I said before in the case of the Q2-M the huge bonus is the B&W EVF, and this coming from someone who dislikes all EVFs so far but with the Q2-M has no choice but to lump it.

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[jaapv]

I’m not a B&W nut, I like colour too much as well, but still my M9M is my never-sell camera. I find it very hard if not impossible to match a Monochrom tonality in a conversion. 

[nicci78]

It’s not first M Monochrom superiority per se. 
It is just another B&W look. 
Just like different B&W film will render image differently. 

If you love B&W Monochrom cameras are one of the best tool available. 
But don’t discount Bayer colour cameras. With more and more pixels and better and better low ISO capabilities. The advantages of Monochrom are getting slimmer and slimmer. 
 

In the end Bayer always win 😜 just by pure brute force  

X-Trans is no better. Foveon seems to be lost in the maze. 

[Viv]

I would love to have a Q2M, but just can't justify the expenditure.

I already have too many cameras (Leica Q2, Leica CL, Fujifilm XT-3).

[nicci78]

Same cannot resolve myself to own a Q2 + Q2 Monochrom. Too crazy. 
Having a 4 years old little lady. I live in colourful life for now. Don’t see the point to gave up on colour.

[Kreeshp]

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The Q2M is an amazing camera - I own one too (along with a M10-P). The tonality of the greys and the ability to shoot clean images in near dark make it a beast of a performer.  Contrary to what some are posting here: 'the usefulness/advantages of monochromatic sensors is getting slimmer and slimmer,' there exists a measurable and useable performance advantage of Leica's monochromatic sensors over its color sensors.

The Q2M has a full TWO stops more dynamic range than the Q2 and this is a usable, real world difference in performance. You can't fake that in post-processing.  Source: https://www.reddotforum.com/content/2021/02/bw-iso-showdown-2021-leica-q2-monochrom-vs-m10-monochrom-vs-q2-vs-m10-r/

If you need color, get a Q2. If you want black+white only, get the Q2M. Both are their respective best in their class for full-frame, auto-focus cameras. But you can't cross shop or compare them directly as they don't produce the same output (you can't ever convert monochrom to color).

It's one thing to not understand the advantages or find them useful but it's disinformation to say that their differences are near negligible or not meaningful.  If your use case doesn't require you to shoot above ISO 6400, the Q2M's performance is lost on you.  Similarly, if you can post process your color images and get the identical result as those shot with a monochromatic sensor, the monochrom cameras will not benefit you...carry on as usual.   If you never shoot in low light, the Q2M is not for you.  But for everyone else who reads the test linked above and appreciates the value in shooting in near dark, the Q2M is a monster performer and amazing value for the money.

[nicci78]

It’s not that Q2 Mono is not great. It’s just that Q2 is not very good in low light 

Red dot results for maximum usable high ISO 

M10 Monochrom : 32,000. 
Q2 Monochrom : 25,000. 
M10-R : 12,800. 
Q2 : 6,400 only. 
As you can see, less difference between state of the art sensor or M10-R and M10 Monochrom. 1.33 stops instead of 2. 

Red dot should add SL2-S to the mix. I guess that high ISO crown will go the colour 24MP camera. 

Edited February 11, 2022 by nicci78

[Kreeshp]

The original poster asked: "Why buy a Q2M when a Q2 can do the same in camera or PP? not which Leica camera has the best high ISO performance.

 

With respect to the M10-R and M10M performance similarity, this is due to the fact that the M10-R sensor is a variant developed from the M10M sensor.

 

A monochromatic sensor will always outperform its color analog because the monochromatic sensor lacks a Bayer color fillter array and does not need to interpolate colors, so if Leica ever made an SL2-S Monochrom it would still beat the SL2-S.   However, this is all very irrelevant to the original poster's question though about why the Q2M instead of the Q2.

[andre_massena]

20 hours ago, Alentejo said:

Would You please help me, I cann't find "Peter Karbe Momentaufnahme".

Your discussion is very interesting for me as a brandnew owner of my first Leica Q.

Here's a link that starts right when Peter talks about his idea on how to his lenses should be used:

 

[nicci78]

10 hours ago, Kreeshp said:

With respect to the M10-R and M10M performance similarity, this is due to the fact that the M10-R sensor is a variant developed from the M10M sensor.

M10-R is not developed from M10 Monochrom. 
S3, M10-R and M10 Monochrom use the same sensor technology. 
Leica has just decided to release M10 Monochrom first. Because they have already skip the 24MP Monochrom variant. 
 

I guess that an M10 Monochrom based on M10/M10-P 24MP variant would not bring anything special on the table against M Monochrom typ 246. So Wetzlar waited until the 40.5MP sensor were available

But today we got the discrepancy back : M11 60MP vs M10 Monochrom 40.5MP. Now Monochrom better acuity is no more. 
According to RDF the M10 Monochrom still has an edge on high ISO. But further testing may confirm that. 
 

Monochrom cameras are always released late. At one point they have to face a newer colour variant. 
18MP M Monochrom vs 24MP M typ 240. 
24MP M Monochrom typ 246 vs 24MP M10. 
40.5MP M10 Monochrom vs 60MP M11

We may see soon 47MP Q2 Monochrom facing 60MP Q3. 
 

They only time Leica made the choice simple was with M10 Monochrom released first. No colour competition for 6 months. Then newer M11 only appeared 2 years later

Otherwise it has always been a choice between Monochrom sensor with old body and electronics vs colour sensor with new body and better electronics 

Edited February 12, 2022 by nicci78

[Delboy72]

For me it has nothing to do with technical performance and everything to do with capturing patterns of light and darkness that are not possible with colour.

[acg69]

5 hours ago, Delboy72 said:

For me it has nothing to do with technical performance and everything to do with capturing patterns of light and darkness that are not possible with colour.

May be so, but what you describe can be had with a color camera switched to mono, i.e. the Q2 shooting B&W. The output is a different story and there, for obvious technical reasons explained many times, the Q2M is better than the Q2. I think we had an extensive discussion in another thread on this, where there was a big discussion about whether the Q2M puts you in a different mindset just by virtue of not being able to see in color through the EVF; I subscribe to the other view, the one that says the difference in ONLY in the output. To answer there original question, if one shoots ONLY B&W there is an advantage to using the Q2M over the Q2 (technical advantage that is, leading to better IQ) but in most other use cases (save for needing to shoot in very low light), the Q2 is more versatile. For me, shooting both color and B&W, the Q2M makes no sense obviously and I am perfectly happy with the results I get from post, color sliders and all:)

[andre_massena]

On 2/10/2022 at 9:37 PM, Alentejo said:

Would You please help me, I cann't find "Peter Karbe Momentaufnahme".

Your discussion is very interesting for me as a brandnew owner of my first Leica Q.

Also found this relevant quote from Karbe out of Overgaaaaard's website: https://www.overgaard.dk/Leica-Camera-Typ-601-Leica-SL-Small-Camera-Large-Print-and-Large-Lenses.html

"

“So, when the lenses perform better, you can concentrate on the decisive moment. The rest you can do later. Take a little bit more space, so you only have to touch the button at the right time. If there are some adjustments, you can do them later. You capture a large picture at the right moment.

“You expect from yourself to take the whole and final picture, ready to show it. But it is better if you have more space, and you can – let's say like the Leica Q (Model 116 with 24 megapixels), you have your frame selector so you can choose 28mm, 35mm or 50mm. If you have the best lenses, then you can crop. This is kind of medium format behavior, because in the past you had 6x6, and then you had the mask inside. You have your full medium format negative, and then you say, ‘Okay, I want to have this part only’.

“Then when we improve the resolution of the camera – the megapixels – and we have the best performance within the lens – the optical performance and resolution of details – you are more flexible.  Because zooming takes time.

“And you can only have one shoot. But if you have an overview, you can take a picture of that overview and then crop later.

“That’s what I think is part of the future. And the Leica Q is well accepted, and we apply this.”

"

Image quality is no longer a print resolution problem.

It so far exceeds printing needs that IQ can now instead be leverage to simplify other image capture tasks, so we, as photographers, can further focus on capturing the Moment.

So when you hear someone say "oh, gee weez, if only Leica had made a Q2 with a {35, 50, 75,... <insert your favorite focal length>}",

you realize they haven't grasp Leica original design intent with it.

So now comes the question, do you fight the design, or do you embrace it?

[jaapv]

On 2/11/2022 at 5:11 PM, Kreeshp said:

(you can't ever convert monochrom to color).

Never heard of the Prokudin-Gorsky process? 😜 We even had some colour photographs by that method  in the forum by the M9 Monochrom 

[Dave in Wales]

Q2.....'M'

Perhaps the "M" stands for the "M..perors new Clothes" 🤣

[nicci78]

https://reddotcamera.net/leica/q2/vs-leica-q2-monochrom/

 

interesting view about Q2 Monochrom 

Edited February 14, 2022 by nicci78

[Alan Friedman]

On 2/12/2022 at 7:29 PM, jaapv said:

Never heard of the Prokudin-Gorsky process? 😜 We even had some colour photographs by that method  in the forum by the M9 Monochrom 

Astronomy imaging is almost always done using narrow band filters in front of monochrome sensors - from Hubble on down to earth bound amateurs.

The Q2M is my first monochrome general purpose camera, but I've owned a number of CCD cameras for scientific imaging and often take one or two with me on vacation to experiment with them on terrestrial subjects. These cameras are generally unfiltered for near IR wavelengths and are quite sensitive here. It was a complicated set-up as the cameras were only operable through connection to a laptop. I've added some old shots of my daughters comparing their skin tonality through IR and blue filters. Can you guess which rendering they preferred? (Warning... do not try this with skin over 40 years of age!) 

With a step down filter adapter 49-48 I can experiment with a wide variety of 2" filters for astronomical imaging on the Q2M. I don't expect the time it will take to capture and assemble an R,G,B composite will make color imaging with the Q2M a sensible pastime. I haven't researched it but I expect the native sensitivity of CCD and CMOS chips in the near IR wavelengths has been tempered on the Leica monochrome sensor. Still, there are creative projects possible that are unique to a monochrome sensor, if experimentation is something you enjoy.

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[jaapv]

33 minutes ago, Alan Friedman said:

Astronomy imaging is almost always done using narrow band filters in front of monochrome sensors - from Hubble on down to earth bound amateurs

I don't think that Sergey ever took a photograph of any part of the sky

His subjects were rather more earth-bound.

 

People forget that sensors are monochrome devices and that colour is only created by the Bayer filter and subsequent processing.

(copyright-free due to age)

 

 

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Hallo,

Look here: Leica Q

[nwphil]

1 hour ago, nicci78 said:

https://reddotcamera.net/leica/q2/vs-leica-q2-monochrom/

 

interesting view about Q2 Monochrom 

well.....a different view for sure. Surprised editing miss the spelling. A "lesser" careful choice of words here and there, and the creme-de-la-creme  ( because there are so many other pointless points, including the conclusion paragraph: "color photographs are better to make black and whites

it will be very obvious that some people will relate with the article - That's fine, it won't change my opinion, and the whole article is nothing I have not heard before

Only thing I can't figure out is out to see which pictures were indeed taken with the Q2 - some are obvious; with others there is some filter and P&P involved, thus less obvious

In the end, the writer obvious does not understand the Q2M....😎