Help me understand....Q2M, why?

[hdmesa]

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9 hours ago, fontilan said:

I understand.

I think I need to try a colour filter and it seems orange is the best all-rounder. The big question: is premium I’d pay for a Leica filter worth it? What’s an equivalent cheaper version and is there any compromise?

Don't buy the Leica filters – aluminum rings. Get B+W that use brass.

B+W recently updated their filter product line – there is now "Basic" (multi-coated) and "Master" (multicoated + nano coating). Their color filters have never been available with the nano coating, so the "Basic" is the only choice. These new filters have thinner rings that are ribbed for better grip. The old filters will be labeled "F-Pro", and I would avoid those since the new "Basic" ones are better, at least physically (probably the same optically).

https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1671291-REG/b_w_66_1102670_39mm_light_red_590.html

Edited March 2, 2022 by hdmesa

[fontilan]

Thank you for the advice. I ordered this B+W orange filter. It’s “basic” but has “F Pro” on the rim. I couldn’t find any other variant at 49mm. If the optics are good then I will live with the build quality. 
 

https://www.speedgraphic.co.uk/black_and_white_contrast/bw_mrc_basic_orange_550_49mm/14628_p.html

Edited March 2, 2022 by fontilan

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[jaapv]

An Orange filter is pretty strong and not the best choice for all conditions. I would advise you to use a mid-Yellow as standard filter and  the Orange one for more dramatic effects. For extreme contrast you could add a Red filter.

[nicci78]

16 hours ago, fontilan said:

I understand.

I think I need to try a colour filter and it seems orange is the best all-rounder. The big question: is premium I’d pay for a Leica filter worth it? What’s an equivalent cheaper version and is there any compromise?

B+W are very good. Heliopan multi coating also. 
Actually you should buy a set : yellow, orange, green and light red. 
You’ll need to change the colour accordingly to subject and weather. 
There are some rules for which colour to use. But those rules can be broken for creative purpose. 
 

Sadly B+W did not sell green one. Buy Leica or Heliopan for this one. 
Heliopan build quality is slightly inferior to B+W. 
 

Edited March 3, 2022 by nicci78

[nicci78]

For a weird reason B+W never updated their colour filtres selection to cater digital Monochrom camera. Hence a selection of Yellow, Orange, Light Red and Dark Red.
Which is an excellent selection for B&W film photography  

Leica on the other hand made another selection better suited to Monochrom sensor : Yellow, Orange and Green. 
 

It will be better not to use the Q2 Mono hood for fast filter switching. Or buy a third party hood that grant direct access to  the filter. Like Lim’s hood

Edited March 3, 2022 by nicci78

[hdmesa]

On 3/2/2022 at 10:32 PM, nicci78 said:

For a weird reason B+W never updated their colour filtres selection to cater digital Monochrom camera. Hence a selection of Yellow, Orange, Light Red and Dark Red.
Which is an excellent selection for B&W film photography  

Leica on the other hand made another selection better suited to Monochrom sensor : Yellow, Orange and Green. 
 

It will be better not to use the Q2 Mono hood for fast filter switching. Or buy a third party hood that grant direct access to  the filter. Like Lim’s hood

There is nothing "not updated" about the B+W color filters for digital – they just give you two more dramatic options than Leica does with the light red and dark red. The B+W yellow and orange are the same effect as the Leica versions. Green has always been the least-used color filter, even in film days, so it's no surprise that B+W doesn't make one. Leica filters use crap aluminum rings which can get stuck if you tighten them too far. B+W uses brass. B+W also recently updated their entire filter line with thinner rings that are ribbed much like the filters made by Breakthrough Photography.

All color filters do not have as dramatic effect on digital as they did on film, though. The yellow filters may as well be clear. Orange is minimum entry for any kind of noticeable effect on digital, IMO.

Edited March 5, 2022 by hdmesa

[Ko.Fe.]

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On 2/3/2022 at 5:03 AM, Dave in Wales said:

... Q2 can do the same in camera or PP.

 

Depends on your self-blidness. 

Edited March 5, 2022 by Ko.Fe.

[nicci78]

4 hours ago, hdmesa said:

There is nothing "not updated" about the B+W color filters for digital – they just give you two more dramatic options than Leica does with the light red and dark red. The B+W yellow and orange are the same effect as the Leica versions. Green has always been the least-used color filter, even in film days, so it's no surprise that B+W doesn't make one. Leica filters use crap aluminum rings which can get stuck if you tighten them too far. B+W uses brass. B+W also recently updated their entire filter line with thinner rings that are ribbed much like the filters made by Breakthrough Photography.

When I say « not updated » I mean that B+W is made for B&W films. 
Response to colour filters is different between film and Monochrom sensor. 
I really liked the green filter on Monochrom much more than light red one. I did not like dark red. 
 

I am glad that Leica sell a quality green one. They are very rare. Heliopan did sell one (single coated only) its brass rim is a nightmare to remove. Do not buy Heliopan filters by the way. 

[jaapv]

Which B&W film? Different films react very differently as well. I find that the M9M reacts very similar to Ilford Delta (not surprising - Leica tweaked it that way.)

[hdmesa]

8 hours ago, nicci78 said:

When I say « not updated » I mean that B+W is made for B&W films. 
Response to colour filters is different between film and Monochrom sensor. 
I really liked the green filter on Monochrom much more than light red one. I did not like dark red. 
 

I am glad that Leica sell a quality green one. They are very rare. Heliopan did sell one (single coated only) its brass rim is a nightmare to remove. Do not buy Heliopan filters by the way. 

Unless you have evidence that the specific tints of yellow and orange Leica used are any better than those used by B+W, then it’s just an assumption. Either way, two facts remain: B+W doesn’t sell green, and Leica doesn’t sell either red. Both are useful, but red is more versatile.

[nicci78]

https://themachineplanet.wordpress.com/2015/09/16/the-leica-monochrom-typ-246-and-filters/
 

a little bit of literature. 

[nicci78]

He came to the same conclusion as myself after using M Monochrom for years : yellow, orange and green are the best choice for Monochrom. 
Red is too difficult to use or at least its effect is not something that you cannot achieve with post processing orange filtered photos. 

Coloured filters for B&W film has to filter UV. Which is unnecessary with digital sensor. 
 

Wavelengths response is different between digital Monochrom and B&W films. Hence they do not necessarily need the same kind of colour filters  

I am not sure why we should dismiss Leica filters, due to aluminium frame. They are beautifully build. 
Leica is moving away from brass. No more silver chrome brass lenses (except special edition). Even black M11 is aluminium now. 
 

For example Heliopan filters are made of brass. But their design is so bad, that they always get stuck. A nightmare to use. 
 

Edited March 6, 2022 by nicci78

[hdmesa]

10 hours ago, nicci78 said:

He came to the same conclusion as myself after using M Monochrom for years : yellow, orange and green are the best choice for Monochrom. 
Red is too difficult to use or at least its effect is not something that you cannot achieve with post processing orange filtered photos. 

Coloured filters for B&W film has to filter UV. Which is unnecessary with digital sensor. 
 

Wavelengths response is different between digital Monochrom and B&W films. Hence they do not necessarily need the same kind of colour filters  

I am not sure why we should dismiss Leica filters, due to aluminium frame. They are beautifully build. 
Leica is moving away from brass. No more silver chrome brass lenses (except special edition). Even black M11 is aluminium now. 
 

For example Heliopan filters are made of brass. But their design is so bad, that they always get stuck. A nightmare to use. 
 

What can I say? I used the M10M and Q2M and came to a different conclusion. Light red filter was my favorite. Not difficult to shoot at all unless shooting wide open with certain M lenses, in which case you can have a shift in the point of focus. Orange may be safer for that reason. Green was just a non-starter for me – never liked how people looked when shot with a green filter – prefer the red which gives Caucasian skin an infrared/lighter look.

UV filtration has near zero effect on digital (unless you have a sensor or lens coatings that don't cut off the UV spectrum very well, in which case it can help), so having UV filtration as part of the color filter makes no difference. But I don't understand where this information about UV filtration comes from. B+W does not advertise their color filters as having UV filtration, and Leica would not make color filters that could not be used on their M film cameras they still sell.

Like I said before, compare B+W orange to Leica orange and demonstrate there is a difference. I'm confident you won't see one. The only meaningful differences are price and construction. The new-design B+W color filters are now thinner than the Leica versions, which may be helpful to reduce vignetting on some lenses.

As for aluminum, I will never use the Leica filters after having one almost get permanently stuck to my 50 Lux BC.

M10M, 28 Lux, B+W light red (older F-Pro version):

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Edited March 6, 2022 by hdmesa

[Mark II]

On 3/3/2022 at 12:02 AM, fontilan said:

Thank you for the advice. I ordered this B+W orange filter. It’s “basic” but has “F Pro” on the rim. I couldn’t find any other variant at 49mm. If the optics are good then I will live with the build quality. 
 

https://www.speedgraphic.co.uk/black_and_white_contrast/bw_mrc_basic_orange_550_49mm/14628_p.html

FWIW, I have had no problems using 46mm filters with a 49 to 46 step down ring. The only catch is that you can only use a single filter this way, otherwise you start to get vignetting and impact issues with the lens hood when in macro mode. This was quite useful for me as all my B&W filters are 46mm to fit my M lenses.

Re the original question, “why…”, I think that it depends very much on where you are coming from as a photographer. Personally, I was shooting largely B&W film, so also using native B&W digital with exactly the same approach to composition and filters was quite natural.

The image quality is distinctive from the Q2M, and the results are not the same as converting colour to mono in lightroom. There are many reasons for this, including the obvious DR and noise benefits, but also using a filter pre-capture can lead to fewer artefacts than by using a digital simulation, particularly around transitions in the image. I have also seen mild posterisation from colour conversions that is not typically seen from direct monochrome. But generally, I think that you need to be shooting in very extreme conditions or be deep in pixel peeping to really see any of these benefits.

So perhaps the most compelling reason is the singular nature of the Q2M. When you pick it up, you know that you are only going to shoot B&W images with a 28mm f1.7 lens. No zooms and no fretting about white-balance or skin tones. No worries if there is enough light or if there is too much rain. And for M users, no worries about off-centre focusing, viewfinder eye-relief, viewfinder diopter adjustment, or close focus. Just glorious B&W and the hunt for patterns of light and shadow.

And most compelling reason for me to not to use the Q2M is its tendency to produce a dot-like pattern with the sun in frame at certain angles. The Q2 also does this, but for some reason it seems worse on monochrome images. It is a camera for moody noir pictures taken on gloomy days or at night - not for sunny holiday snaps at the beach!

[WeiterWinkel]

Am 2.3.2022 um 23:13 schrieb hdmesa:

B+W recently updated their filter product line – there is now "Basic" (multi-coated) and "Master" (multicoated + nano coating). Their color filters have never been available with the nano coating, so the "Basic" is the only choice. These new filters have thinner rings that are ribbed for better grip. The old filters will be labeled "F-Pro", and I would avoid those since the new "Basic" ones are better, at least physically (probably the same optically).

The yellow filter is the older B+W F-PRO version, the red filter the newer one, labelled "Basic". The handling of the newer version is indeed better because of the ribbed edge. The height of both versions is the same.

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Edited March 7, 2022 by WeiterWinkel

[hdmesa]

9 hours ago, WeiterWinkel said:

The yellow filter is the older B+W F-PRO version, the red filter the newer one, labelled "Basic". The handling of the newer version is indeed better because of the ribbed edge. The height of both versions is the same.

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Oh wow, I wonder why they wouldn't have made them thinner? Maybe the glass for the color filters has to be too thick for the thinner bezel. Oh well. Scratch that for being a benefit of the B+W over the Leica! The gripped edges look nice, though.

[WeiterWinkel]

vor 37 Minuten schrieb hdmesa:

Oh wow, I wonder why they wouldn't have made them thinner? Maybe the glass for the color filters has to be too thick for the thinner bezel. Oh well. Scratch that for being a benefit of the B+W over the Leica! The gripped edges look nice, though.

Don‘t forget the price tag. Leica‘s are double the price 😉

[hdmesa]

Just now, WeiterWinkel said:

Don‘t forget the price tag. Leica‘s are double the price 😉

I can't forget – I have a few Leica UV filters 💸😭😆