What Barnack should I buy ?

[Kl@usW.]

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Perhaps this thread is the right place for my question: 

I am thinking about getting a Leitz LTM body  (-aka Barnack ? Or is a Barnack something different  than a Leitz LTM body ?)

There  is a wide range of choices--from the very early models to the last, pre-M models ( IIIg ?) What would be a reasonable choice, taking in account: 

-I'm not a collector, but intend to use the camera-so I'm not interested in a fancy collectors item for the shelf 

- I intend to use the camera with a 28, 35 and or 50 mm lens. External finder is OK..

-I have 3 film M bodies 

Would a IIIc be a good choice?     

Any suggestions where to buy and what to look after? 

Any help is appreciated ! Thank you! 

[willeica]

10 minutes ago, Kl@usW. said:

Perhaps this thread is the right place for my question: 

I am thinking about getting a Leitz LTM body  (-aka Barnack ? Or is a Barnack something different  than a Leitz LTM body ?)

There  is a wide range of choices--from the very early models to the last, pre-M models ( IIIg ?) What would be a reasonable choice, taking in account: 

-I'm not a collector, but intend to use the camera-so I'm not interested in a fancy collectors item for the shelf 

- I intend to use the camera with a 28, 35 and or 50 mm lens. External finder is OK..

-I have 3 film M bodies 

Would a IIIc be a good choice?     

Any suggestions where to buy and what to look after? 

Any help is appreciated ! Thank you! 

They are all LTM 'Leica Thread Mount" cameras, but some people call them 'Barnacks' as the design originated with Oskar Barnack.

The IIIc is a nice camera, but Leica had a lot of issues with materials in the immediate post war years and many IIIcs have very faint rangefinder images, so you would need to examine the camera or factor in the cost of a service  (CLA). If you want full features, a IIIg will give you that , but a IIIf Red Dial would probably come at a lower price.

You will only be able to use LTM lenses with the camera and you should at least have a 5cm/50mm f 3.5 Elmar, the lens that 'made Leica',  in order to sample a legend. There are plenty of choices for 28mm and 35mm lenses and viewfinders to match them.

William 

Edited January 26, 2022 by willeica

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[luigi bertolotti]

My first choice, as a user item, is for the IIIf : very "Barnack" (differently from III G) but the latest of the breed, and very reliable.

IIIG has two pluses :

- Better viewfinder : when one is accustomed to M, the IIIf viewfinder is perceived as "small"... no doubt

- Standard times scale : more psychological than practical, but having your usual 250/125/60/30 is nice.

IIIG is more costly to get. 

And... when you have a Barnack... you cannot have not an Elmar 5 cm... 😄

 

Edited January 26, 2022 by luigi bertolotti

[frame-it]

i use a iiic and a iiif, usually one with color film and one with b&w..loads of choices for LTM lenses.

[UliWer]

Perhaps my recommendations are not in line with general consent, though...

1. Leica II (Model D) in silver chrome. The II was the first Leica with coupled rangefinder, but in every other aspect it was as simple as it could be. No long exposure times (you don't really need them, and they only cause problems for the shutter with old models). I know that everybody wants a black paint II.  Though after you found one in good condition you will be shy to use it, to avoid scratches etc. for the black paint. With the silver chrome version you don't care. Silver II are rarer than the black ones, but cheaper.

2. Very late (serial number higher than 750.000) Leica IIf. It has everything the IIIf has, but no long exposure times (see above) and no self timer, which you also don't need. The late IIf were the last "classic" Leica screwmount bodies before  (or even at the same time) as the IIIg. So you have a chance to find one in better condition than earlier ones - but cheaper.   

Edited January 26, 2022 by UliWer

[nitroplait]

I'm with @UliWer The II (model D) is a great place to start. The Barnacks are all great, charming etc. but compared to the M series they are quirky to use, and the minor variations of inconvenience between models is irrelevant.

The Leica II feels tiny (compared to an IIIF for example) and with a 50/3.5 you have a truly pocketable classic.

I am also with @UliWer on the alternate suggestion. You probably won't use the slow speeds anyway, and the simpler design of an IIf is cleaner, cheaper and easier to maintain.

I own a Leica II and a IIIF and much prefer the first:

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[Pyrogallol]

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I agree. The model 11 (2) is my favourite. The only thing to remember is that they do not have strap lugs. I use a wrist strap screwed into the tripod mount on the bottom.

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Edited January 26, 2022 by Pyrogallol

[Ko.Fe.]

1 hour ago, Kl@usW. said:

Perhaps this thread is the right place for my question: 

I am thinking about getting a Leitz LTM body  (-aka Barnack ? Or is a Barnack something different  than a Leitz LTM body ?)

There  is a wide range of choices--from the very early models to the last, pre-M models ( IIIg ?) What would be a reasonable choice, taking in account: 

-I'm not a collector, but intend to use the camera-so I'm not interested in a fancy collectors item for the shelf 

- I intend to use the camera with a 28, 35 and or 50 mm lens. External finder is OK..

-I have 3 film M bodies 

Would a IIIc be a good choice?     

Any suggestions where to buy and what to look after? 

Any help is appreciated ! Thank you! 

LUF has non-Leica sub forum, but the Leica it was started from is just ignored here. Shame.

 

The first and most important suggestion, make sure you get serviced one. They are still been serviced.  

I got IIIc after war version. Right after service.

IIIf is good as well for real use, but it has one serious defect. RF and VF lenses are held by plastic frame. It is not time proofed solution. IIIf with lost RF, VF lenses are not rare on sale. And those lenses are not exists anymore as spare. The only solution is to have metal frame, instead of cracking plastic. 

 

 

 

[Kl@usW.]

Oh, that's a treasure trove of information. Thank you William, Luigi, frame-it, Uli, Nitroplait, Pyrogallol and Ko.Fe.  Now I have a lot of decisions to make. Looks as if  I might need more than just one Barnack.... 

Thank you again, Klaus

[a.noctilux]

Two LTM is a must 😊

they are so small

one with a lens attached

the other with another focal length

...

for your third focal, you may need (?) a third Leica 👌 which can be one of your M with LTM to M adapter.

I'm serious as long time user of those nice cameras.

Practical moves...

- I suggest one Standard with 28mm (in that day they called 2.8cm Summaron ! ), so small, lovely and efficient as it should be.

As I don't have 2.8cm LTM Summaron, I use 3d party 28mm Ricoh 2.8, Canon 3.5, not better but hardly worse.

- second kit can be II or III attached with 5cm (needing RF focus) or 3.5cm plus SBOOI (5cm) or SBLOO 3.5cm as a big plus comparing to Leica M finder 🙃.

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Standard at left

[a.noctilux]

Needless to say, I use when I can SBOOI

just for pleasure to look through, sometimes

😁

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Edited January 26, 2022 by a.noctilux

[mediumformula]

I bought a IIIf a couple years ago on ebay for about $250.  It's a really fun camera that I recommend.  It is currently in for a CLA that is costing me more than I paid for the camera.  The shutter jammed and the curtain had a light leak.  After I bought it I painstakingly removed the plastic vulcanite covering and replaced it with a nice natural leather cover that really improved the feel and handling of the camera.

The other day I bought a Leica II.  They are even smaller than the Leica III.  With the collapsible Elmar or Hektor lens the Leica II is a real pocket camera.  Only downside of Leica II is lack of strap lugs.

As others have said, don't worry about finding a camera with slow shutter speeds.  I've never used them on my IIIf.

I would also suggest just using the Barnack with a 50mm lens.  But that's just me.  Adding an external viewfinder defeats the purpose of using one of these compact cameras IMO.

 

 

Edited January 26, 2022 by mediumformula

[Anbaric]

3 hours ago, Kl@usW. said:

Perhaps this thread is the right place for my question: 

I am thinking about getting a Leitz LTM body  (-aka Barnack ? Or is a Barnack something different  than a Leitz LTM body ?)

There  is a wide range of choices--from the very early models to the last, pre-M models ( IIIg ?) What would be a reasonable choice, taking in account: 

-I'm not a collector, but intend to use the camera-so I'm not interested in a fancy collectors item for the shelf 

- I intend to use the camera with a 28, 35 and or 50 mm lens. External finder is OK..

-I have 3 film M bodies 

Would a IIIc be a good choice?     

Any suggestions where to buy and what to look after? 

Any help is appreciated ! Thank you! 

The things I would consider are:

Condition - This above all else. A recently serviced camera is ideal if you can find one. Otherwise, the majority of LTM cameras on the market, even the 'recent' ones (still more than 60 years old!) will probably have one issue or another. Common problems include faint rangefinder images, sticking or inaccurate shutters, shutter blinds with cracks or pinholes, 'dry' film transport mechanisms crying out for lubrication, disintegrating vulcanite, etc. Buy from somewhere that offers a guarantee or at least return privileges. Factor in the cost of a service if necessary from someone who knows what they are doing (ask here), but note that the cost of this can approach the price of the camera and may take months if the service technician is overworked, as many of the best are.

Shutter speed range - Apart from the original III, all the III-series cameras (from the IIIa onwards) have the full 1-1/1000 range. Most of the II series cameras (with some exceptions) top out at 1/500, and none of them have slow speeds. You may or may not care about the slow speeds, but 1/1000 is nice to have if it's adjusted properly, not so much for capturing fast action but to give you a bit more flexibility when setting exposures, especially if you have (say) 400 ISO loaded and you find yourself in 'sunny 16' conditions.

Viewfinders - From the IIIb onwards, the viewfinder and rangefinder windows were brought much closer together. The older arrangement is not a dealbreaker, but the adjacent finders are more convenient. The original II also lacks the rangefinder focus adjuster, which is a helpful addition. The IIIg has a unique viewfinder, still not combined with the rangefinder but with parallax-corrected framelines for 50mm and 90mm. All the others just have a simple viewfinder, without framelines, for 50mm only. Leica's own single focal-length accessory finders have floating framelines and are very nice, but they aren't cheap for the wider lenses. Leica's multi-finders have no framelines, just adjustable masks, and aren't nearly as nice to use.

Size - With the new chassis design, the cameras got slightly bigger from the IIIc onwards (and supposedly stronger, though the earlier cameras are holding up very well over 80 years later!). The IIIg is significantly bigger than all the others, and is less of a 'jacket pocket' camera than the IIIf or earlier.

Lenses - Whatever else you get, get a collapsible 50mm. The various versions of the Elmar and the Summitar are good choices, and you can find factory-coated versions (it's harder to find a Summar or collapsible Summicron in nice condition). These lenses make the whole thing a compact package, because of course the lens retracts and you don't have to bother with accessory finders. LTM lenses can easily be adapted to your M cameras, but not the other way around.

Film - Trim the leader so that it corresponds to the shape in the manual or the diagram under the base plate. This has a longer, thinner section with unpaired sprocket holes than is standard today. If you don't, you risk chipping the film and jamming the mechanism. You can do it carefully with scissors (easy enough when you get the hang of it), or use a cutting template and sharp knife (the original Leica templates now go for crazy prices). There are various complicated tricks to avoid doing this which I think are much more trouble (and riskier) than they are worth.

Here's a copy of the manual (for the IIIf):

https://www.cameramanuals.org/leica_pdf/leica_if_iif_iiif.pdf

[Al Brown]

Everybody has contributed some great advice.
I would say, get whatever LTM Barnack calls you. Browse the offers and see what camera clicks with you - if you fall in love with it. Beautiful way of getting a LTM, but can be costly.

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Edited January 26, 2022 by Al Brown

[Matlock]

My favourite is my IIId but, as has been said, the IIf is superb and has a much "cleaner" look. Here is mine.

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[UliWer]

4 hours ago, Kl@usW. said:

Now I have a lot of decisions to make

If you ask in this Forum, you can be sure to get recommendations for everything which is possible, and some on top. 

[UliWer]

Not meant as advertising, just my first try in focus stacking with an M10, a Focotar II and some Novoflex equipment (the right edge, the background and the lighting certainly need improvement...):

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The II was my first screw mount camera, it came with a Summar (completely unusuable) and seriously needed a CLA. Since then it worked for 14 years now. The Elmar is no contemporary to the camera, but from 20 years later, though you can't go wrong with it. 

[Shac]

The II is a super model, I'm lucky to have one, and doubly lucky b/c it came with the rangefinder diopter adjustment as a modification. If you wears glasses like me this is a great addition, but this feature was not on the original Leica II. If you need the diopter adjustment and want the smaller body, consider the III or IIIa - both are great bodies.

Edited January 27, 2022 by Shac

[romualdo]

1 hour ago, Shac said:

The II is a super model, I'm lucky to have one, and doubly lucky b/c it came with the rangefinder diopter adjustment as a modification. If you wears glasses like me this is a great addition, but this feature was not on the original Leica II. If you need the diopter adjustment and want the smaller body, consider the III or IIIa - both are great bodies.

This is the reason I avoid the IIs - I started with an early IIIf (bd) then added a IIIa & a IIIg & finally last week a black paint III - all users - LTM's are addictive IMHO

I wear glasses now but don't like using them with my Leicas (reduced field of view) so dioptre adjustment is important, something missing from most IIs - you were able to get dioptre attachments for these cameras but they are far & few between.

If you are used to an M camera, the IIIg viewfinder is vastly improved on the previous models (also has parallax correction) & close to looking through an M

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Edited January 27, 2022 by romualdo

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[Stefan2010]

Klaus, I guess every LTM is a good choice. I like the III most and use them for nearly 100% of all photos. For me it feels different to the later ones. 

They should be easy to find in the web or in one of the bigger stores in Germany.

Mine have been serviced regulary and both III are running without any problems. 

Stefan