What Barnack should I buy ?

[Kl@usW.]

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Am 26.1.2022 um 14:14 schrieb willeica:

You will only be able to use LTM lenses with the camera and you should at least have a 5cm/50mm f 3.5 Elmar, the lens that 'made Leica',  in order to sample a legend. There are plenty of choices for 28mm and 35mm lenses and viewfinders to match them.

William 

William, thank you for the information about the problems with the IIIc...  My experience with the M Leicas is that you have to factor in the cost of a service anyway--whatever the sellers will tell you. So I expect this to be the same with the LTM Leicas.. 

Since it seemsto be the unanimous opinion  to start with an Elmar 3,5/50 I bought one already--before the body-- and have this Elmar now on my MP, with an adaptor. Needs some lubrication--otherwise I am very enthused about the little lens--incredible build and size. 

Thinking about  a 35 mm LTM lens:  the Summaron 3,5/ 35 would be the logical addition to the Elmar ?   ( I don't need something faster, I have that in M-mount ) 

 

Am 26.1.2022 um 14:23 schrieb luigi bertolotti:

My first choice, as a user item, is for the IIIf : very "Barnack" (differently from III G) but the latest of the breed, and very reliable.

IIIG has two pluses :

you cannot have not an Elmar 5 cm... 

😄

 

Luigi, thank you for your response and advice. As said concerning the Elmar: accomplished !   I'm very happy with the lens and just shooting it on an MP black paint. Lovely combo. As to the IIIg: I don't consider a IIIg seriously since I'm more a user than a collector. And the IIIg seems pretty close to the M Leica 

Am 26.1.2022 um 14:52 schrieb UliWer:

Perhaps my recommendations are not in line with general consent, though...

1. Leica II (Model D) in silver chrome. The II was the first Leica with coupled rangefinder, but in every other aspect it was as simple as it could be. No long exposure times (you don't really need them, and they only cause problems for the shutter with old models). I know that everybody wants a black paint II.  Though after you found one in good condition you will be shy to use it, to avoid scratches etc. for the black paint. With the silver chrome version you don't care. Silver II are rarer than the black ones, but cheaper.

2. Very late (serial number higher than 750.000) Leica IIf. It has everything the IIIf has, but no long exposure times (see above) and no self timer, which you also don't need. The late IIf were the last "classic" Leica screwmount bodies before  (or even at the same time) as the IIIg. So you have a chance to find one in better condition than earlier ones - but cheaper.   

Uli, before your comment, the II D wasn't really on my shortlist. Apparently there are some features missing, which the later model have.  But the longer I look at the pictures, the more I'm tempted...  And of course, the IIf would absolutely make sense..

Am 26.1.2022 um 15:23 schrieb nitroplait:

I'm with @UliWer The II (model D) is a great place to start. The Barnacks are all great, charming etc. but compared to the M series they are quirky to use, and the minor variations of inconvenience between models is irrelevant.

The Leica II feels tiny (compared to an IIIF for example) and with a 50/3.5 you have a truly pocketable classic.

I am also with @UliWer on the alternate suggestion. You probably won't use the slow speeds anyway, and the simpler design of an IIf is cleaner, cheaper and easier to maintain.

I own a Leica II and a IIIF and much prefer the first:

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Thank you for the pictures, nitroplait. And wow, the black II is a beauty.. 

Am 26.1.2022 um 15:35 schrieb Pyrogallol:

I agree. The model 11 (2) is my favourite. The only thing to remember is that they do not have strap lugs. I use a wrist strap screwed into the tripod mount on the bottom.

Thank you Pyrogallol.  Your picture clearly explains why the II D is your favourite.  The wrist strap solution seems a good idea. 

Am 26.1.2022 um 17:16 schrieb a.noctilux:

Two LTM is a must 😊

for your third focal, you may need (?) a third Leica 👌 which can be one of your M with LTM to M adapter.

I'm serious as long time user of those nice cameras.

Practical moves...

- I suggest one Standard with 28mm (in that day they called 2.8cm Summaron ! ), so small, lovely and efficient as it should be.

As I don't have 2.8cm LTM Summaron, I use 3d party 28mm Ricoh 2.8, Canon 3.5, not better but hardly worse.

- second kit can be II or III attached with 5cm (needing RF focus) or 3.5cm plus SBOOI (5cm) or SBLOO 3.5cm as a big plus comparing to Leica M finder 🙃.

Standard at left

a.noctilux, you have a very practical approach, which I appreciate.   And you picture shows very nicely the evolution of the Leica body. 

 

Am 26.1.2022 um 18:27 schrieb mediumformula:

I bought a IIIf a couple years ago on ebay for about $250.  It's a really fun camera that I recommend.  It is currently in for a CLA that is costing me more than I paid for the camera.  The shutter jammed and the curtain had a light leak.  After I bought it I painstakingly removed the plastic vulcanite covering and replaced it with a nice natural leather cover that really improved the feel and handling of the camera.

The other day I bought a Leica II.  They are even smaller than the Leica III.  With the collapsible Elmar or Hektor lens the Leica II is a real pocket camera.  Only downside of Leica II is lack of strap lugs.

As others have said, don't worry about finding a camera with slow shutter speeds.  I've never used them on my IIIf.

I would also suggest just using the Barnack with a 50mm lens.  But that's just me.  Adding an external viewfinder defeats the purpose of using one of these compact cameras IMO

 

Am 26.1.2022 um 19:13 schrieb Al Brown:

Everybody has contributed some great advice.
I would say, get whatever LTM Barnack calls you. Browse the offers and see what camera clicks with you - if you fall in love with it. Beautiful way of getting a LTM, but can be costly.

 

Al, a nice photo and it explains clearly, why embarking on the HMS LTM might get costly.... 

Am 26.1.2022 um 19:37 schrieb Matlock:

My favourite is my IIId but, as has been said, the IIf is superb and has a much "cleaner" look. Here is mine.

 

Matlock, it does look clean !   And I wasn't aware that there is an LTM version of the S´cron asph 35... Quite a combo ! 

Am 26.1.2022 um 22:39 schrieb UliWer:

Not meant as advertising, just my first try in focus stacking with an M10, a Focotar II and some Novoflex equipment (the right edge, the background and the lighting certainly need improvement...):

 

The II was my first screw mount camera, it came with a Summar (completely unusuable) and seriously needed a CLA. Since then it worked for 14 years now. The Elmar is no contemporary to the camera, but from 20 years later, though you can't go wrong with it. 

Uli, as said, the IID looks great ! 

Am 27.1.2022 um 05:04 schrieb Shac:

The II is a super model, I'm lucky to have one, and doubly lucky b/c it came with the rangefinder diopter adjustment as a modification. If you wears glasses like me this is a great addition, but this feature was not on the original Leica II. If you need the diopter adjustment and want the smaller body, consider the III or IIIa - both are great bodies.

Thank you, Shac. A rangefinder diopter adjustment would be a great find. True. 

Am 27.1.2022 um 06:14 schrieb romualdo:

This is the reason I avoid the IIs - I started with an early IIIf (bd) then added a IIIa & a IIIg & finally last week a black paint III - all users - LTM's are addictive IMHO

I wear glasses now but don't like using them with my Leicas (reduced field of view) so dioptre adjustment is important, something missing from most IIs - you were able to get dioptre attachments for these cameras but they are far & few between.

If you are used to an M camera, the IIIg viewfinder is vastly improved on the previous models (also has parallax correction) & close to looking through an M

 

Romualdo, thank you. I agree, using an LTM with glasses seems not to be the solution.  I need reading glasses nowadays, but not for the distance. So a II would work for me and  i could live with the uncorrected parallax... I think the IIIg is the last bloom on a beautiful flower, but since I have two MPs, I don't really need that perfection on an LTM. I´m looking more for the petiteness and pocketabilitiy of the LTMs.  But thank you again for your  experience, it is appreciated.

Edited January 29, 2022 by Kl@usW.

[Kl@usW.]

Am 26.1.2022 um 18:41 schrieb Anbaric:

The things I would consider are:

 

Anbaric, thank you for your systematic and extensive approach, a lot of useful information. And thank you for the link to the  manuals !   ( When I worked in the lab, there was a note stuck on the wall: If anything fails, go to the manual...) I didn't know the LTM are capricious about the shape  of the film leader--in the M I just pop in the film and put on the lid....But maybe the LTMs are princesses compared to the more mundane M´s... 

Shutter speed range: thinking about it. Not really doing much tripod stuff with my MPs

Condition - I have a thick folder named: Camera service, subfolders Leica (the thickest) ; Hasselblad, Canon, Others.... After buying a lot of stuff-new and used- I  have come to the conclusion to look more for the general appearance, hints for gross negligance or damage and to factor in  the cost of a service. If unnecessary:  great ! 

Lenses - Whatever else you get, get a collapsible 50mm:   Done so ! 

Film - Trim the leader so that it corresponds to the shape in the manual or the diagram under the base plate. :    Note taken ! 

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[a.noctilux]

Some old Leica user informed me that ABLON is a must have to use LTM Leicas.

I did otherwise, I never have ablon but learned to cut (approximatively at first) the modern film to use on them.

20 or 21 sprockets counting + a pair of scissors can do it easily for me.

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For your next lens 35mm, Summaron 3.5/3.5cm is very good choice to go with your 'already appreciated' 3.5/5cm.

more compact than newer

here in Wiki

Edited January 29, 2022 by a.noctilux

[Pyrogallol]

There is s screw 35mm Summicron asph here https://www.reddotcameras.co.uk/254-screw-lenses#/focal_length-35mm&orderby=position&orderway=asc&n=1

You don’t need to buy an expensive ABLON, just make a template like this one I made in the 1970’s or buy a copy like this Photax one.

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Edited January 29, 2022 by Pyrogallol

[frame-it]

49 minutes ago, a.noctilux said:

20 or 21 sprockets counting

i usually cut upto #16, never had a problem.

[frame-it]

1 hour ago, Kl@usW. said:

Thinking about  a 35 mm LTM lens:  the Summaron 3,5/ 35 would be the logical addition to the Elmar ?  

the elmar 35mm LTM is a delicious lens..lovely rendering

[Matlock]

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4 hours ago, Kl@usW. said:

 

Matlock, it does look clean !   And I wasn't aware that there is an LTM version of the S´cron asph 35... Quite a combo ! 

 

Several modern lenses were made available in LTM, mainly for the Japanese markets I am told. Here is my IIId with Summilux

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[mikemgb]

On 1/26/2022 at 9:36 AM, Kl@usW. said:

Oh, that's a treasure trove of information. Thank you William, Luigi, frame-it, Uli, Nitroplait, Pyrogallol and Ko.Fe.  Now I have a lot of decisions to make. Looks as if  I might need more than just one Barnack.... 

Thank you again, Klaus

You’re on a slippery slope there, you will find that one Barnack is never enough. Then once you have a few you may discover the clones, Leotax, Nicca, even Reid if you’re willing to sell a child to fund one. 
 

I started with a III, then a IIIa came along, that was followed by a Ia, then a Leotax called my name…..

[Kl@usW.]

vor 9 Stunden schrieb a.noctilux:

Some old Leica user informed me that ABLON is a must have to use LTM Leicas.

I did otherwise, I never have ablon but learned to cut (approximatively at first) the modern film to use on them.

20 or 21 sprockets counting + a pair of scissors can do it easily for me.

Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here…

Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members!

For your next lens 35mm, Summaron 3.5/3.5cm is very good choice to go with your 'already appreciated' 3.5/5cm.

more compact than newer

here in Wiki

a.noctilux; the paraphernalia of the Leica cosmos are a never ending pleasure. Incredible. And thank you again for your advice concerning the 3,5 centimeters. I'm all for the compactness. 

[Kl@usW.]

vor 8 Stunden schrieb Pyrogallol:

There is s screw 35mm Summicron asph here https://www.reddotcameras.co.uk/254-screw-lenses#/focal_length-35mm&orderby=position&orderway=asc&n=1

You don’t need to buy an expensive ABLON, just make a template like this one I made in the 1970’s or buy a copy like this Photax one.

Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here…

Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members!

Thank you, Pyrogallol. I went to the red dot  site following your link--and a door opens to a world were I might get lost easily.  Next time when and if I'm in London I´ll make a little detour and send my wife shopping in the meantime ....  Actually I was considering a Cron 35 for my MP on and off; but in the end  I thought the `lux 35 on my shelf   can do everything the ´Cron could. Apart from the size.   In the LTM world I will try to get accustomed to the Elmar 50 first and take my next steps from there. 

It's long ago since I did metal work--but your nice  example is a kind of motivation. Thank you ! 

 

Edited January 29, 2022 by Kl@usW.

[mikemgb]

If you have access to a 3D printer this "ALBON" works well: https://www.thingiverse.com/thing:1951048

[willeica]

11 hours ago, Kl@usW. said:

Thinking about  a 35 mm LTM lens:  the Summaron 3,5/ 35 would be the logical addition to the Elmar ?   ( I don't need something faster, I have that in M-mount ) 

 

The Summaron is lovely compact lens which gives great results if you can find a good copy. 

I had forgotten about my LHSA You Tube Zoom from 2020 about Choosing and Using Old Leicas. The link is in this article.

https://www.macfilos.com/2020/08/26/leica-cameras-of-the-20th-century-a-video-presentation-from-noted-expert-william-fagan/

In the Zoom I chose my IIf Red Dial as one of my favourite post war LTM cameras. It has 1/1000th top speed, but no slow speeds. You will note that I say I prefer to have nothing under my right hand when gripping the camera and I don't use the slow speeds anyway.

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Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members!

Also in the talk I say that while I have an ABLON I don't use it and I prefer to just use scissors which suits me perfectly.

There is a lot more in the video.

William

 

 

 

Edited January 29, 2022 by willeica

[Jul]

1 hour ago, Kl@usW. said:

thank you again for your advice concerning the 3,5 centimeters. I'm all for the compactness.

Well, late version is slightly less compact but has a more standard filter size, its barrel does not rotate as you focus which is something you might appreciate if you use polarizing filter and the distance scale is where you expect it as M user.

[a.noctilux]

11 hours ago, frame-it said:

i usually cut upto #16, never had a problem.

You are right,

I follow the good advice of old Leica user and found confirmation in the base (inside) of Leica IIor III "<---10cm = 4"--->", about 20-21 sprockets .

As said I cut in advance "rough guess" my films preparing for use with LTM.

Just measure and count on one film I prepared some weeks ago (not use it yet),  #17 and about 8cm of cut portion.

For some years this rough guess film cut works fine also for me.

 

[Anbaric]

23 hours ago, Pyrogallol said:

There is s screw 35mm Summicron asph here https://www.reddotcameras.co.uk/254-screw-lenses#/focal_length-35mm&orderby=position&orderway=asc&n=1

You don’t need to buy an expensive ABLON, just make a template like this one I made in the 1970’s or buy a copy like this Photax one.

Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here…

Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members!

Even the vintage copies seem pretty expensive nowadays, though not as bad as the ABLON, which costs about as much as the cameras. A home made one like yours would be a nice project for anyone with access to the tools! I'm a bit surprised one of the companies that sells things like lens hoods from China on ebay hasn't made a cheap metal copy - it's no more specialised than some of the things they do make, like the SNHOO E39 adapter that only fits the Summitar. I recently found a modern cutting template, the UNX-8624,  in the Meister range from UN in Japan:

https://www.un-ltd.co.jp/unx-8624-en/

Unfortunately it doesn't seem to be widely available outside Japan, though I've spotted it selling for an inflated price on ebay. There is also the Photonbox plastic version:

http://www.photonbox.com/filmtrimmer.html

https://www.ebay.com/itm/154808435167

and, as well as the conventional design mikemgb mentions, some odd looking 3D printed things that turn up on ebay and elsewhere:

https://cameractive.shop/products/leica-ablon-film-trimmer

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/255255735074

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/203804827470

 

Edited January 30, 2022 by Anbaric

[Anbaric]

11 hours ago, a.noctilux said:

You are right,

I follow the good advice of old Leica user and found confirmation in the base (inside) of Leica IIor III "<---10cm = 4"--->", about 20-21 sprockets .

I also count sprocket holes, leaving 23 unpaired as in the picture in the IIIf manual, which I expect is a few more than necessary. The main thing is to cut between, rather than though, the sprocket holes (leaving one damaged is asking for trouble), and I round off the corner to give the cut a similar profile to the ABLON.

[a.noctilux]

Anyway, it's necessary to cut longer than modern film leader.

I tried out sometimes without cutting the 17-21 sprockets cut (not cutting in the sprocket 😉), when in a hurry or when I forgot to prepare film in advance.

...

I use the credit card trick or help loading in T setting, this works well also, but need some practices,

to avoid complications.

[Anbaric]

On 1/29/2022 at 10:35 AM, Kl@usW. said:

And thank you for the link to the  manuals !   ( When I worked in the lab, there was a note stuck on the wall: If anything fails, go to the manual...)

One other thing you might find interesting is the Morgan & Lester manual, a full length book that was published in various editions from the 30s onwards:

https://archive.org/search.php?query=morgan lester leica

The 12th edition from the early 50s is especially good, with contributions from people like Alfred Eisenstaedt and Ansel Adams. You can still find hardback copies of most editions for very reasonable prices, unusual for anything to do with Leica!

[Anbaric]

5 minutes ago, a.noctilux said:

Anyway, it's necessary to cut longer than modern film leader.

I tried out sometimes without cutting the 17-21 sprockets cut (not cutting in the sprocket 😉), when in a hurry or when I forgot to prepare film in advance.

...

I use the credit card trick or help loading in T setting, this works well also, but need some practices,

to avoid complications.

My solution for cutting film 'in the field' is to carry one of these, the ideal accessory for any LTM user 🙂

https://www.leatherman.com/micra-20.html

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Hallo,

Look here: Interesting Leica gear

[a.noctilux]

Credit card loading trick discussion which we can see stating 28 holes !

https://www.photrio.com/forum/threads/loading-an-old-leica.171389/

 

As side note, with Leica IIIf and IIIg, Leitz did add a clever device to push in the film when loading .

T device attached to base plate, but when I use the device with modern film, this not always work.

 

Edited January 30, 2022 by a.noctilux