Shutter noise in M11

[BJohn]

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8 minutes ago, glenerrolrd said:

YES I completely understand and agree that it should not matter .  In a few weeks or a month I will have adjusted and the M11 will be my friend .

I can feel the heat literally. And I can understand it. Still, you are wrong. It should matter. The M is about essence of photography and passion.

For me, it is more about that this additional step takes some time and I truly believe with that improved shutter, the M would be even faster if Leica could remove that step. With the new metering you cannot bring back the old M and we have to life with that. I still think it’s odd and I won’t buy the M11. Leica won’t give a damn about my $9k.

But as a lot of people already pointed out - and the more I think about it the more I tend towards „they are right to some degree or another“ - it’s a change most Leica photographers will be thankful for (especially the new metering). They won’t even notice the new shutter.

Edited January 16, 2022 by BJohn

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[RMF]

25 minutes ago, BJohn said:

Haha there is some truth in your example  I already stated that it’s much better than M10R with LV mode, so it’s potentially more a minor decrease in how the perfect solutions looks like (IMHO).

I’m from the world of performant software/hardware, instead of calling it a ‘setback’, I would consider it a ‘regression’ from the M10R and M10P shutter; I would think this is already on Leica’s roadmap to address someway (maybe the M10P 🙂).

 

 

 

 

Edited January 16, 2022 by RMF

[Herr Barnyard]

you guys think thats bad? my watch was three hours ahead and I couldn't reset it so I had to move to new york .. any change in shutter speed isn't going to make a difference to me 

Edited January 16, 2022 by Herr Barnyard

[glenerrolrd]

10 minutes ago, SrMi said:

I was reading it as humor, not as an attack on you. 
There is a difference if a moderator participates as a regular user or a moderator. In this case, it was clear that digitalfx posted as a regular user. 
It is essential to have different opinions on LUF and discuss them. That does not mean that everyone has to agree with you or me.

O.K. We just disagree .  The two sides to the original argument where (1) the sound, feel and responsiveness of the new shutter is a step backwards  and (2) the differences are not noticeable to most photographers .   Both sides are correct !.  I am not most photographers .  

I should be able to say ....I noticed the differences and they matter to me .  Its not helpful ..to first question my competence, experience or even if that I have a m11 .  Then to follow up with humor that clearly shows a huge over reaction to my point of view .  

Maybe it would help to ask a few questions ?  Like why does this bother you or how does this affect your photography ?  or even suggest will you not gradually adjust to the differences ?  

Because its easier to just deny and discredit those that have different opinions . 

My apology for digging in my heals on this issue .  

 

[Guest BlackBarn]

On 1/16/2022 at 12:02 AM, LeicaR10 said:

Leica took the best of the best, made it even better with over 40 improvements fielded a most excellent piece of craftmanship in the history of the digital M

Of course I can see where you are coming from but thats  all relative to the individual  photographer and how they respond to their camera. Each are different.  The same could be said about lenses that they have improved the best of the best with the latest releases. However many will appreciate the advancement but not see the improvements as being ‘ better’. 

There is a marketing ploy that promotes ‘the latest is the greatest’ and that concept  drives sales.  The idea is to leaves a taste in the mouth suggesting that  if you haven’t got the latest then you have less chance of producing the ‘better photograph’ while also working with an out of date system.

Nobody needs the 40 improvements in the M11 to take great photos. What new owners might appreciate is the advancements in the ease of use and it’s greater flexibility….the finer points of workflow.

The majority of Photographers who complain about a camera do so because the reasons are real to them….likewise do those who promote the benefits. If there wasn’t this tension,  there wouldn’t been the richness of photographic expression we all enjoy today.

[glenerrolrd]

22 minutes ago, digitalfx said:

Glen,

Again very sorry. In no way was I attempting to discredit you with my question. You made a statement that led me to believe, obviously erroneously that you didnt have an M11...thus the question. In hind sight it was not appropriate or necessary.

I am a Leica user, my comments are from the perspective of a user first. You singled me out in your post claiming I needed to recalibrate my hearing aid...when in fact I was posting the actual sound and waveforms of the shutter, so yes I over reacted.

MODERATOR COMMENT:

I think we all need to step back, take a deep breath and stick to the discusion and stop the name calling. We clearly all have differing opinions, which is just fine.

Guilty as Charged ...apology to all .  

[SrMi]

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8 minutes ago, glenerrolrd said:

O.K. We just disagree .  The two sides to the original argument where (1) the sound, feel and responsiveness of the new shutter is a step backwards  and (2) the differences are not noticeable to most photographers .   Both sides are correct !.  I am not most photographers .  

I should be able to say ....I noticed the differences and they matter to me .  Its not helpful ..to first question my competence, experience or even if that I have a m11 .  Then to follow up with humor that clearly shows a huge over reaction to my point of view .  

Maybe it would help to ask a few questions ?  Like why does this bother you or how does this affect your photography ?  or even suggest will you not gradually adjust to the differences ?  

Because its easier to just deny and discredit those that have different opinions . 

My apology for digging in my heals on this issue .  

 

I disagree that we disagree, because I agree with what you wrote.

[glenerrolrd]

14 minutes ago, RMF said:

I’m from the world of performant software/hardware, instead of calling it a ‘setback’, I would consider it a ‘regression’ from the M10R and M10P shutter; I would think this is already on Leica’s roadmap to address someway (maybe the M10P 🙂).

 

 

 

 

But when they allocate R&D money ..they have to perceive a real need .  So its useful to let them know ..."Hey we noticed the regression and it matters to us".  

 

[glenerrolrd]

25 minutes ago, BJohn said:

I can feel the heat literally. And I can understand it. Still, you are wrong. It should matter. The M is about essence of photography and passion.

For me, it is more about that this additional step takes some time and I truly believe with that improved shutter, the M would be even faster if Leica could remove that step. With the new metering you cannot bring back the old M and we have to life with that. I still think it’s odd and I won’t buy the M11. Leica won’t give a damn about my $9k.

But as a lot of people already pointed out - and the more I think about it the more I tend towards „they are right to some degree or another“ - it’s a change most Leica photographers will be thankful for (especially the new metering). They won’t even notice the new shutter.

I guess I hope you are wrong ..and I can adapt my rhythm to the new M11 ..flaws and all .    Heck after COVID not sure I even have rhythm anymore .   I adapted to the M8 -M9 ..full frame ; the M9-M240 CCD -CMOS : M240-M10 ..thinner camera:M10-M10P new shutter .  Each affected something about sound, feel , responsiveness AND ,of course ,sometimes the files .  They all affected my Leica experience ...  I hated the change but mostly loved the improvements .

Really hard to upgrade to the M11 ..I have two M10M and two M10R s ....those bodies are perfect .  Yet I know that each new Leica brought additional capabilities that I learned to use.  I tried to go back to the original MONO (CCD) because files were perfect ....but I realized quickly that the M10M was a lot better . 

[BJohn]

2 minutes ago, glenerrolrd said:

Really hard to upgrade to the M11 ..I have two M10M and two M10R s ....those bodies are perfect .  Yet I know that each new Leica brought additional capabilities that I learned to use.  I tried to go back to the original MONO (CCD) because files were perfect ....but I realized quickly that the M10M was a lot better . 

World keeps spinning  Hopefully after COVID everybody gets his rhythm back, with an M10x or an M11! As mentioned in some other threads, I'll wait for the M11P. Needless to say that I would even pay an additional $1k just to get back the old metering. I'm very good in spot metering with the RF, nothing more easy, focus, half-press the shutter, recompose, click. That's so fast! For all the highlights I just decreased the overall exposure compensation to -1/3 EV (at the M10R, for the M10P I used -1 EV). But again, looking at the bigger picture, the new implemented way of metering makes sense in folks using more and more the EVF and for a better exposure overall. I was a bit reluctant in the beginning of these discussions (and some bits of me still are) but I also have to accept that most people are happy with the way the M11 works. In all of these discussions, only a small portion is against the new shutter / metering (at least how I perceived it). Concluding in: Leica did a good job.

[SrMi]

3 hours ago, Artin said:

Here is what bothers me about the M11 shutter noise .... it’s the lack of it when using the electronic shutter it just feels weird pressing the release and ——————— nothing. 
is there an option in the menu to add a beep or a fake shutter noise to the electronic shutter ? 

No. elmars wrote in his review: " I would like to have the option for a virtual shutter sound, but Leica didn´t hear on the beta-testers in this regard"

When a shot occurs, the shutter speed briefly switches to underbars. I am OK with that,

[Stevejack]

3 hours ago, glenerrolrd said:

I have two M10M and two M10R s ....those bodies are perfect

Curious as to why you have two of each? Not a loaded question at all, genuinely interested in your workflow and how you use them.

[Stevejack]

3 hours ago, Artin said:

Here is what bothers me about the M11 shutter noise .... it’s the lack of it when using the electronic shutter it just feels weird pressing the release and ——————— nothing. 
is there an option in the menu to add a beep or a fake shutter noise to the electronic shutter ? 

I would love a shutter release with haptic feedback. A slight tap on the finger to let you know you've taken a shot when using the e-shutter.

14 minutes ago, SrMi said:

When a shot occurs, the shutter speed briefly switches to underbars. I am OK with that,

Seems like a reasonable workaround, I was wondering what solution they would come up with for the rangefinder. 

[jack-tucker]

vor 13 Stunden schrieb SrMi:

That does not make sense. Example: why would 1 ns difference be significant? (note: the difference is more than that).

If you cannot notice the difference in use, why would it be significant?

Well, taking the risk to sound a bit esoteric, but I think that any delay would matter for me, when taking pictures. I am not talking about situations where you arrange the camera on a tripod (here I would anyway use a 2sec timer), or generally for landscapes, etc. 

But if one is looking for what is often called "the decisive moment" and often being associated to a Leica M, then it would matter to me. As I said, it might sound esoteric to others. Like some audiophile people would reject listening to digital recordings, despite the fact that objectively spoken, the sampling rate is so high that it would actually not be noticeable...

I am sure one could get used to it. But I think it is easier to learn to use the classical M metering (mid-centred). 

 

[SrMi]

6 hours ago, jack-tucker said:

Well, taking the risk to sound a bit esoteric, but I think that any delay would matter for me, when taking pictures. I am not talking about situations where you arrange the camera on a tripod (here I would anyway use a 2sec timer), or generally for landscapes, etc. 

But if one is looking for what is often called "the decisive moment" and often being associated to a Leica M, then it would matter to me. As I said, it might sound esoteric to others. Like some audiophile people would reject listening to digital recordings, despite the fact that objectively spoken, the sampling rate is so high that it would actually not be noticeable...

I am sure one could get used to it. But I think it is easier to learn to use the classical M metering (mid-centred). 

 

Note that we are discussing the ‘delay’ because we know that theoretically it should exist and not because someone noticed it and it bothered them.

[Reciprocity]

In my opinion (and experience) if one is to lose or even partially sacrifice a key function or feature in a tool, especially one as specifically nuanced as a Leica M camera, then that is just not an upgrade and it is not worth it if what you are using is working great. 
 

When it comes to Leica, I simply try before I buy and then make a purchasing decision based on that. By the sounds of it and from what I hear on the clips, the M11 will likely be a camera I am either going to skip or it is where I stop upgrading because shutter sound is of paramount importance to me in the type of work I use Leica for. Once they get the sensor readout fast enough to be able to rely on an electronic only shutter like my Z9 then I can get back in the game. 

As I have said elsewhere I will give the M11 a try for my self and if I feel it is making a more distracting noise than I am comfortable with, then I don’t have to buy it and can either stick with my M10-P or move to an M10-R. 
 

At least we have great choices now, we did not before the M10-P.

 

[Robert Blanko]

Just out of curiosity: Is the sound of the black M11 different as compared to the sound of a silver M11, because material and mass are different? 🤔

[jack-tucker]

vor 14 Stunden schrieb SrMi:

Note that we are discussing the ‘delay’ because we know that theoretically it should exist and not because someone noticed it and it bothered them.

Sure, in the real world, there is no need to discuss this at all. The M11 must be a great camera, thats it. 

However, as I have mentioned earlier, I do notice the delay of the shutter, in the video posted here. I am discussing something I actually noticed, not something that theoretically exists... But again, it actually does not bother me as I am happy with my M10P. 

I definitely don't want to spoil the fun for those who are happy with their M11. If it doesn't bother them, then all good.

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[elmars]

vor einer Stunde schrieb jack-tucker:

I do notice the delay of the shutter

You can hear a delay of 0,017 sec? I think what You really hear is a different, more complex shutter operation.

[jack-tucker]

vor 1 Stunde schrieb elmars:

You can hear a delay of 0,017 sec? I think what You really hear is a different, more complex shutter operation.

That's another way to put it: A more complex shutter operation. But no, I can not hear it, I can see it. I am sure you can, too. Just watch the video.

EDIT: SORRY, I JUST SAW YOU PUT UP ANOTHER VIDEO YOURSELF. SO YOU CAN COMPARE IT BETTER THAN I COULD.

HOWEVER, WHAT I SEE IS: M11: Finger goes down, immediately after you can hear the click and after the high pitched sound (slightly scratching sound) which sounds similar to the rewind sound of the M8, but much much shorter... All together not unpleasant but definitely noticeably. 

And I must say, I would not care about the volume of the shutter sound. Not on the street, neither in most other situations. But the shutter of the M11 seems to me less prompt as compared to M10P, M240 or any analog M I know. I could easily life with a short delay after the shot (like with the M8 or of course any Film M). I could also life with the noise level of any M I know. Buy this "delay" would take me some time to get used to, to say the least...

For those who can not notice it, it doesn't matter of course. Perfect.

Edited January 18, 2022 by jack-tucker