Shutter noise in M11

[SrMi]

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2 minutes ago, glenerrolrd said:

Making "FUN" of someones serious post is an effective technique to discredit a debate opponent .   Humor at whose expense ?  The intent was obvious . 

Just like our moderators challenging whether I even have an M11 .   The intent is obvious ....discredit the person not the argument .  

I guess its just not possible to have a fair and balanced discussion on the LUF .  My conclusion .

I was reading it as humor, not as an attack on you. 
There is a difference if a moderator participates as a regular user or a moderator. In this case, it was clear that digitalfx posted as a regular user. 
It is essential to have different opinions on LUF and discuss them. That does not mean that everyone has to agree with you or me.

[glenerrolrd]

10 minutes ago, digitalfx said:

Very sorry I missed the part about the M11 sitting on your desk. I assumed by your descriptions that you must not have an M11:

"big Kerrr Plunk when the shutter closes followed by a mild shutter sound"

"The shutter sound is just like an M10 with a VISO"

The M10 shutter with a Visoflex and even without a Viso is significantly louder than the M11 (and M10R). Maybe you meant to say M10R?

Regarding "big Kerr Plunk"...maybe this is semantics...but I just dont hear a big Kerr plunk. I hear muted sounds that are slightly longer in duration than my M10M.  No question at all that the shutter sound is different, I stated that in my first post...IMO its not significant enough of a difference to have this level of angst. Regardless im not sure why it matters, its too late for Leica to go back to the old metering on this model.

Correct on the M10 with Viso ..I intended it to be the M10R or M10M with the new shutter and a VISO. 

The facts are that the M11 had a Kerr plunk followed a normal shutter open/close .  Thats all part of the shutter sound and feel .  Whether that matters is a function of personal perception .  YES many will not even notice .  But if you use an M as long as I have ...you can feel the difference immediately .  Exactly like you noticed on many previous M releases .  

I completely understand and agree that it should not matter .  In a few weeks or a month I will have adjusted and the M11 will be my friend .

Keep in mind Leica promoted the heck out of the M10_P new quiet shutter .  Or the fact that the M10 was slightly thinner than the M240 .   Sound and feel matters .  

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[digitalfx]

7 hours ago, glenerrolrd said:

Making "FUN" of someones serious post is an effective technique to discredit a debate opponent .   Humor at whose expense ?  The intent was obvious . 

Just like our moderators challenging whether I even have an M11 .   The intent is obvious ....discredit the person not the argument .  

I guess its just not possible to have a fair and balanced discussion on the LUF .  My conclusion .

 

Again very sorry. In no way was I attempting to discredit you with my question. You made a statement that led me to believe, obviously erroneously that you didnt have an M11...thus the question. In hind sight it was not appropriate or necessary.

I am a Leica user, my comments are from the perspective of a user first. You singled me out in your post claiming I needed to recalibrate my hearing aid...when in fact I was posting the actual sound and waveforms of the shutter, so yes I over reacted.

MODERATOR COMMENT:

I think we all need to step back, take a deep breath and stick to the discusion and stop the name calling. We clearly all have differing opinions, which is just fine.

[BJohn]

8 minutes ago, glenerrolrd said:

YES I completely understand and agree that it should not matter .  In a few weeks or a month I will have adjusted and the M11 will be my friend .

I can feel the heat literally. And I can understand it. Still, you are wrong. It should matter. The M is about essence of photography and passion.

For me, it is more about that this additional step takes some time and I truly believe with that improved shutter, the M would be even faster if Leica could remove that step. With the new metering you cannot bring back the old M and we have to life with that. I still think it’s odd and I won’t buy the M11. Leica won’t give a damn about my $9k.

But as a lot of people already pointed out - and the more I think about it the more I tend towards „they are right to some degree or another“ - it’s a change most Leica photographers will be thankful for (especially the new metering). They won’t even notice the new shutter.

Edited January 16, 2022 by BJohn

[RMF]

25 minutes ago, BJohn said:

Haha there is some truth in your example  I already stated that it’s much better than M10R with LV mode, so it’s potentially more a minor decrease in how the perfect solutions looks like (IMHO).

I’m from the world of performant software/hardware, instead of calling it a ‘setback’, I would consider it a ‘regression’ from the M10R and M10P shutter; I would think this is already on Leica’s roadmap to address someway (maybe the M10P 🙂).

 

 

 

 

Edited January 16, 2022 by RMF

[Herr Barnyard]

you guys think thats bad? my watch was three hours ahead and I couldn't reset it so I had to move to new york .. any change in shutter speed isn't going to make a difference to me 

Edited January 16, 2022 by Herr Barnyard

[glenerrolrd]

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10 minutes ago, SrMi said:

I was reading it as humor, not as an attack on you. 
There is a difference if a moderator participates as a regular user or a moderator. In this case, it was clear that digitalfx posted as a regular user. 
It is essential to have different opinions on LUF and discuss them. That does not mean that everyone has to agree with you or me.

O.K. We just disagree .  The two sides to the original argument where (1) the sound, feel and responsiveness of the new shutter is a step backwards  and (2) the differences are not noticeable to most photographers .   Both sides are correct !.  I am not most photographers .  

I should be able to say ....I noticed the differences and they matter to me .  Its not helpful ..to first question my competence, experience or even if that I have a m11 .  Then to follow up with humor that clearly shows a huge over reaction to my point of view .  

Maybe it would help to ask a few questions ?  Like why does this bother you or how does this affect your photography ?  or even suggest will you not gradually adjust to the differences ?  

Because its easier to just deny and discredit those that have different opinions . 

My apology for digging in my heals on this issue .  

 

[Guest BlackBarn]

On 1/16/2022 at 12:02 AM, LeicaR10 said:

Leica took the best of the best, made it even better with over 40 improvements fielded a most excellent piece of craftmanship in the history of the digital M

Of course I can see where you are coming from but thats  all relative to the individual  photographer and how they respond to their camera. Each are different.  The same could be said about lenses that they have improved the best of the best with the latest releases. However many will appreciate the advancement but not see the improvements as being ‘ better’. 

There is a marketing ploy that promotes ‘the latest is the greatest’ and that concept  drives sales.  The idea is to leaves a taste in the mouth suggesting that  if you haven’t got the latest then you have less chance of producing the ‘better photograph’ while also working with an out of date system.

Nobody needs the 40 improvements in the M11 to take great photos. What new owners might appreciate is the advancements in the ease of use and it’s greater flexibility….the finer points of workflow.

The majority of Photographers who complain about a camera do so because the reasons are real to them….likewise do those who promote the benefits. If there wasn’t this tension,  there wouldn’t been the richness of photographic expression we all enjoy today.

[glenerrolrd]

22 minutes ago, digitalfx said:

Glen,

Again very sorry. In no way was I attempting to discredit you with my question. You made a statement that led me to believe, obviously erroneously that you didnt have an M11...thus the question. In hind sight it was not appropriate or necessary.

I am a Leica user, my comments are from the perspective of a user first. You singled me out in your post claiming I needed to recalibrate my hearing aid...when in fact I was posting the actual sound and waveforms of the shutter, so yes I over reacted.

MODERATOR COMMENT:

I think we all need to step back, take a deep breath and stick to the discusion and stop the name calling. We clearly all have differing opinions, which is just fine.

Guilty as Charged ...apology to all .  

[SrMi]

8 minutes ago, glenerrolrd said:

O.K. We just disagree .  The two sides to the original argument where (1) the sound, feel and responsiveness of the new shutter is a step backwards  and (2) the differences are not noticeable to most photographers .   Both sides are correct !.  I am not most photographers .  

I should be able to say ....I noticed the differences and they matter to me .  Its not helpful ..to first question my competence, experience or even if that I have a m11 .  Then to follow up with humor that clearly shows a huge over reaction to my point of view .  

Maybe it would help to ask a few questions ?  Like why does this bother you or how does this affect your photography ?  or even suggest will you not gradually adjust to the differences ?  

Because its easier to just deny and discredit those that have different opinions . 

My apology for digging in my heals on this issue .  

 

I disagree that we disagree, because I agree with what you wrote.

[glenerrolrd]

14 minutes ago, RMF said:

I’m from the world of performant software/hardware, instead of calling it a ‘setback’, I would consider it a ‘regression’ from the M10R and M10P shutter; I would think this is already on Leica’s roadmap to address someway (maybe the M10P 🙂).

 

 

 

 

But when they allocate R&D money ..they have to perceive a real need .  So its useful to let them know ..."Hey we noticed the regression and it matters to us".  

 

[glenerrolrd]

25 minutes ago, BJohn said:

I can feel the heat literally. And I can understand it. Still, you are wrong. It should matter. The M is about essence of photography and passion.

For me, it is more about that this additional step takes some time and I truly believe with that improved shutter, the M would be even faster if Leica could remove that step. With the new metering you cannot bring back the old M and we have to life with that. I still think it’s odd and I won’t buy the M11. Leica won’t give a damn about my $9k.

But as a lot of people already pointed out - and the more I think about it the more I tend towards „they are right to some degree or another“ - it’s a change most Leica photographers will be thankful for (especially the new metering). They won’t even notice the new shutter.

I guess I hope you are wrong ..and I can adapt my rhythm to the new M11 ..flaws and all .    Heck after COVID not sure I even have rhythm anymore .   I adapted to the M8 -M9 ..full frame ; the M9-M240 CCD -CMOS : M240-M10 ..thinner camera:M10-M10P new shutter .  Each affected something about sound, feel , responsiveness AND ,of course ,sometimes the files .  They all affected my Leica experience ...  I hated the change but mostly loved the improvements .

Really hard to upgrade to the M11 ..I have two M10M and two M10R s ....those bodies are perfect .  Yet I know that each new Leica brought additional capabilities that I learned to use.  I tried to go back to the original MONO (CCD) because files were perfect ....but I realized quickly that the M10M was a lot better . 

[BJohn]

2 minutes ago, glenerrolrd said:

Really hard to upgrade to the M11 ..I have two M10M and two M10R s ....those bodies are perfect .  Yet I know that each new Leica brought additional capabilities that I learned to use.  I tried to go back to the original MONO (CCD) because files were perfect ....but I realized quickly that the M10M was a lot better . 

World keeps spinning  Hopefully after COVID everybody gets his rhythm back, with an M10x or an M11! As mentioned in some other threads, I'll wait for the M11P. Needless to say that I would even pay an additional $1k just to get back the old metering. I'm very good in spot metering with the RF, nothing more easy, focus, half-press the shutter, recompose, click. That's so fast! For all the highlights I just decreased the overall exposure compensation to -1/3 EV (at the M10R, for the M10P I used -1 EV). But again, looking at the bigger picture, the new implemented way of metering makes sense in folks using more and more the EVF and for a better exposure overall. I was a bit reluctant in the beginning of these discussions (and some bits of me still are) but I also have to accept that most people are happy with the way the M11 works. In all of these discussions, only a small portion is against the new shutter / metering (at least how I perceived it). Concluding in: Leica did a good job.

[SrMi]

3 hours ago, Artin said:

Here is what bothers me about the M11 shutter noise .... it’s the lack of it when using the electronic shutter it just feels weird pressing the release and ——————— nothing. 
is there an option in the menu to add a beep or a fake shutter noise to the electronic shutter ? 

No. elmars wrote in his review: " I would like to have the option for a virtual shutter sound, but Leica didn´t hear on the beta-testers in this regard"

When a shot occurs, the shutter speed briefly switches to underbars. I am OK with that,

[Stevejack]

3 hours ago, glenerrolrd said:

I have two M10M and two M10R s ....those bodies are perfect

Curious as to why you have two of each? Not a loaded question at all, genuinely interested in your workflow and how you use them.

[Stevejack]

3 hours ago, Artin said:

Here is what bothers me about the M11 shutter noise .... it’s the lack of it when using the electronic shutter it just feels weird pressing the release and ——————— nothing. 
is there an option in the menu to add a beep or a fake shutter noise to the electronic shutter ? 

I would love a shutter release with haptic feedback. A slight tap on the finger to let you know you've taken a shot when using the e-shutter.

14 minutes ago, SrMi said:

When a shot occurs, the shutter speed briefly switches to underbars. I am OK with that,

Seems like a reasonable workaround, I was wondering what solution they would come up with for the rangefinder. 

[jack-tucker]

vor 13 Stunden schrieb SrMi:

That does not make sense. Example: why would 1 ns difference be significant? (note: the difference is more than that).

If you cannot notice the difference in use, why would it be significant?

Well, taking the risk to sound a bit esoteric, but I think that any delay would matter for me, when taking pictures. I am not talking about situations where you arrange the camera on a tripod (here I would anyway use a 2sec timer), or generally for landscapes, etc. 

But if one is looking for what is often called "the decisive moment" and often being associated to a Leica M, then it would matter to me. As I said, it might sound esoteric to others. Like some audiophile people would reject listening to digital recordings, despite the fact that objectively spoken, the sampling rate is so high that it would actually not be noticeable...

I am sure one could get used to it. But I think it is easier to learn to use the classical M metering (mid-centred). 

 

[SrMi]

6 hours ago, jack-tucker said:

Well, taking the risk to sound a bit esoteric, but I think that any delay would matter for me, when taking pictures. I am not talking about situations where you arrange the camera on a tripod (here I would anyway use a 2sec timer), or generally for landscapes, etc. 

But if one is looking for what is often called "the decisive moment" and often being associated to a Leica M, then it would matter to me. As I said, it might sound esoteric to others. Like some audiophile people would reject listening to digital recordings, despite the fact that objectively spoken, the sampling rate is so high that it would actually not be noticeable...

I am sure one could get used to it. But I think it is easier to learn to use the classical M metering (mid-centred). 

 

Note that we are discussing the ‘delay’ because we know that theoretically it should exist and not because someone noticed it and it bothered them.

[Reciprocity]

In my opinion (and experience) if one is to lose or even partially sacrifice a key function or feature in a tool, especially one as specifically nuanced as a Leica M camera, then that is just not an upgrade and it is not worth it if what you are using is working great. 
 

When it comes to Leica, I simply try before I buy and then make a purchasing decision based on that. By the sounds of it and from what I hear on the clips, the M11 will likely be a camera I am either going to skip or it is where I stop upgrading because shutter sound is of paramount importance to me in the type of work I use Leica for. Once they get the sensor readout fast enough to be able to rely on an electronic only shutter like my Z9 then I can get back in the game. 

As I have said elsewhere I will give the M11 a try for my self and if I feel it is making a more distracting noise than I am comfortable with, then I don’t have to buy it and can either stick with my M10-P or move to an M10-R. 
 

At least we have great choices now, we did not before the M10-P.

 

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[Robert Blanko]

Just out of curiosity: Is the sound of the black M11 different as compared to the sound of a silver M11, because material and mass are different? 🤔