Why I will not be getting a M11...

[Tailwagger]

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35 minutes ago, MikeMyers said:

Please explain what the "true worth of the thing.

Sorry mate, there are some things you just have to figure out for yourself. 

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[MikeMyers]

4 minutes ago, Tailwagger said:

Sorry mate, there are some things you just have to figure out for yourself. 

That's what I've done, and my conclusion is only for me, not others.  But I realize I've never seen it in person, so after my visit to Leica Store Miami things might change.  I've got a very open mind about this.  I've only owned the M10 for about two years - Spring 2019.

[Tailwagger]

17 minutes ago, MikeMyers said:

That's what I've done, and my conclusion is only for me, not others.  But I realize I've never seen it in person, so after my visit to Leica Store Miami things might change.  I've got a very open mind about this.  I've only owned the M10 for about two years - Spring 2019.

I think you've still missed my original point.  Imagine you walk into your local camera club, M10 dangling from your neck only to find yourself surrounded by an angry mob of FuNiCaSons who declare you an enemy of the state and are about to tear you limb from limb unless you explain to them just why an $8k or so camera with a 24 Mpx sensor, 250 shot battery life, $5K and up primes, no zooms, no IBIS, worse DR than a A7iii, etc, etc, is anything other than a symbol of decadence. 

Now consider we lucky few who have acquired an M11 who are sitting here being asked to explain just why we're so chuffed about it to folks with M9s or 10s who are staring at the $9K price tag, looking over the spec and thinking roughly the same thing.

You may very well be correct that the M11 isn't for you. But if what you're going on, just as those hypothetical FuNiCaSons, is the feature list, you're failing to account for your own experience with the M10 and how that camera transcends its specs and price tag. You know the brilliance of the 10, so do I; I owned one for over 3 years and 50K frames. For me, while I remain fond of that camera, I'm happy to have moved on. So you're certainly right; try it for yourself. It may speak to you, it may not. Those are the only words that should matter.

[M9reno]

7 hours ago, Artin said:

This is very true what you say. Leica played a fast one on us with the M10R .. they lunched it as a premium product with a premium price increase. 
then they slip in the M11 which should have been slightly more then a standard M10 at over the price of the so called premium model.

 

Almost looks like with the M10R someone at Leica got the idea to shake up the predictable succession of M -> MP -> MM (->MD).

It is also clear since the M (typ 240) naming experience that Leica dislikes burning through numbered digital generations too fast, or even at all.  Look at how long the M10 generation was spread out: half a decade.

So for another manufacturer the M10-R could have been named M11, followed soon thereafter by the new M, which would be known as M12, or even as M13 if with the M240 Leica had not skipped a generation.. 

9 hours ago, bernstein1234 said:

In my country, the demand for M10-R BP has increased instead. There are some out there would still prefer the baseplate for nostalgic reasons and feeling that 40mp is enough. There's also tests which seemed to favour M10-R skin color as the color profiles for M11 had yet to reach maturity stage.

I'll keep my M10-R BP indefinitely and probably look at a M11 BP if it ever exist. Still, no IBIS.

In addition there will be those who appreciate staying with the same system of batteries and chargers if they already own another M10.  By comparison, new owners of black M11 cameras, should they buy an M11P or whatever in the future, will be playing mix-n-match with battery finish (black, silver, black paint???), or just selling and buying new batteries…

[otto.f]

6 hours ago, Tailwagger said:

 They cost less at intro. That's about it, AFAICT. 

There's really no point in arguing much about the camera with folks that don't have one. There are plenty of reasons, great and small to pass on the M11.  But for those intent on sitting on the sidelines, don't kid yourself, the specs don't begin to tell the story.  The thing that amuses me in this sort of discussion is that all too often the detractors have so little self awareness on the subject of value when it comes to the M. Try explaining to your buddy with an A1 why you spent half a BMW on an M10-D with a 50 APO back in 2020. Point being that for those who already own an M at the moment, it should be clear that neither the specs nor the price of entry can adequately describe the experience let alone the true worth of the thing. It shouldn't be that difficult to accept that the same is true with the M11. 

At least 60% I guess of the photo's we make with digital M's could have been made with an iPhone, if you see how these pictures are used,  presented or archived.

[M9reno]

13 hours ago, Artin said:

 

I can not think of one single thing that any of the previous Digital M bodies did better than the M11, If someone can point it out I am all ears.

 

Perspective control? For now. 

[shirubadanieru]

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Just spent my first day with the camera, here’s an overall summary: 

• zero complains in the shooting experience, there’s not one thing I can say about the camera that is negative; if you enjoy the rangefinder experience, you will enjoy the M11, period. 
• that being said, at the same time, there’s also nothing shockingly surprising or mindblowing, it’s just like shooting any other leica camera that came before it
• Simply put, the M11 feels like a natural progression from the M10, it keeps the foundation built in the previous generation, and adds a few extra improvements such as larger battery, better metering (although I couldn’t tell the difference yet), improved menus, etc. Overall, I don’t think you need to necessarily upgrade from M10 if you are happy with it.
•  the issues raised here from people who have not used / own the camera are based out of a spec list (like me in the beginning, I had a few concerns and I raised them here, especially as an M9P user I was concerned); Now that I’ve used the camera, shutter sound / black paint finish / weight all are perfect to me, zero issues, and to be honest I think if someone has an issue with these things it’s either because they are nitpicking or the Leica M camera is just not for them. 

First two pics I loved from my first batch : ) 

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Edited January 21, 2022 by shirubadanieru

[MikeMyers]

1 hour ago, otto.f said:

At least 60% I guess of the photo's we make with digital M's could have been made with an iPhone, if you see how these pictures are used,  presented or archived.

One problem here, is that the iPhone manipulates image using software created by Apple to make images appear even better than "reality".  Watch this video to see what I mean:  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MZ8giCWDcyE

Back to this thread, the M8 did something no previous Leica was able to do, capturing a digital image instead of film.

The M9 was better than the M8 in that it captured full-frame images, and at higher ISO speeds.  M8 cameras were just as good, but within limits.

The M10 got skinnier, and was capable of creating images better than the previous Leicas, and to me, it reached the limit of what I needed in a camera.  The key word is "needed".

Now there's the M11, which can use even higher ISO, create even more detailed files, and has what seems to be a smoother interface, and for the first time, could be controlled by touching the smart screen on the back of the camera.

 

My problem is personal.  I still use my M8, but I feel "limited" by what the camera can do.  My M10 does everything I need it to do, and it's more powerful than what I need to get out of it.  The M11 does even more, but while those things would be nice for me to have access to, I don't "need" them, and I'm not sure I "want" them.  For me, the touch screen is something I would rather not have - that's why I never upgraded my Fuji X100f to the newer X100v.  The M10 already has more resolution than what I need.  I suspect the lovely M11 photos that we've seen in this forum could have been taken with an M10, and could not have been taken with an M8.

 

As to comparing to an iPhone, the Leica captures what's really "there", not an enhanced digital representation that the phone software improved.

Having said all that though, until when/if I get to work with an M11 for a while, and take some images, and see how useful or annoying the touch screen is, I don't really know enough about the M11 to comment.  Extra memory?  Great.  Larger battery - Great.  Can create huge files?  I wouldn't use that.  I see lots of small improvements, a few things that I don't want, and a huge price tag to get something my M10 already does.  Maybe I'll feel differently once I see one.

 

It's like with cars - I drive a 2012 Mazda MX-5.  A few years ago they re-designed the car, making it lighter, smaller, and gave it higher performance - but in doing so, they gave it a style I don't like, made the already small trunk even smaller, and created a car I have no desire, let alone interest, in owning.  I've looked at the new models, sat in them, and read the specs, but it's not "me".  What I "want" is an old 1960's British Sports Car, and the 2012 Mazda was better than the original in every way...   but I don't like the new design.  With the M, I'm pretty sure I can do everything with the M11 that I can with the M10, so other than features like a touch screen, it's probably a "better" camera, but maybe not "better" for me.

[MikeMyers]

12 minutes ago, M9reno said:

Perspective control? For now. 

Hmm, for me, that's something I may or may not do on my computer, but would never want to do on my camera.  All I want my camera to do is capture what it sees.  If I had a choice, I would prefer my camera not have tools like that - it's like my Nikon Df, that has a small image editor built in, which I've never used.  All I want is a good raw file, as accurate as possible to what the camera saw.

[wizard]

vor 15 Stunden schrieb neekon:

Have you never tried something in store and decided to buy it to give it further testing?  

No, not if it costs roughly 10,000.- US dollars. But I am glad you are getting to like your new camera.

[MikeMyers]

5 minutes ago, shirubadanieru said:

I think if someone has an issue with these things it’s either because they are nitpicking or then, Leica is not for them. 

Well, to pick just one thing, I very much do NOT want a camera with a touch screen.  To me that has nothing to do with a Leica.  It's already why I did not upgrade my current Fuji X100f, and have no desire to do so.

Now, had the M11 included an articulating rear screen, that's something I would very much want to have, so I can shoot with my camera overhead, or down on the ground.  I guess Leica hasn't done it, because the camera would be physically larger?

[shirubadanieru]

Just now, MikeMyers said:

Well, to pick just one thing, I very much do NOT want a camera with a touch screen.  To me that has nothing to do with a Leica.  It's already why I did not upgrade my current Fuji X100f, and have no desire to do so.

Now, had the M11 included an articulating rear screen, that's something I would very much want to have, so I can shoot with my camera overhead, or down on the ground.  I guess Leica hasn't done it, because the camera would be physically larger?

You don’t have to use the touch screen..there are dials you can use. Leica M11 is very simple in its offerings and quite flexible to fit most user needs that enjoy the M experience. Example:

• Do you want to print large or max res: choose 60MP. ; Do you want to shoot street and reduce file size: choose 18MP.
• Do you want to enjoy the latest technology: use touch screen, wi-fi transfer, gps with fotos app, etc etc. ; Do you want to focus on the essentials? Use the external dials.
• Do you want to leave it all up to the camera? Set everything to AUTO. Do you want to shoot it like a film camera? Use the external dials to set everything manually by yourself.

 

It’s pretty straightforward to me, that the camera is there for you to use it how you would like to use it. That’s up to you to decide. For me, like you, I will never use the touch screen. Does it bother me or do I think Leica shouldn’t have add it? No..some people enjoy it, and for people like me, it does not get in the way of anything, since I have the dials instead. 

[M9reno]

9 minutes ago, MikeMyers said:

Hmm, for me, that's something I may or may not do on my computer, but would never want to do on my camera.  All I want my camera to do is capture what it sees.  If I had a choice, I would prefer my camera not have tools like that - it's like my Nikon Df, that has a small image editor built in, which I've never used.  All I want is a good raw file, as accurate as possible to what the camera saw.

Fair enough, but if one of the selling points of these high-res cameras is the option to crop, perspective control is an obvious purpose.

[jaapv]

Umm.. why is a touch screen non Leica when nearly all Leicas have it and an articulating screen Leica when no M, S  or L series Leica has it ?

 

8 minutes ago, MikeMyers said:

Well, to pick just one thing, I very much do NOT want a camera with a touch screen.  To me that has nothing to do with a Leica.  It's already why I did not upgrade my current Fuji X100f, and have no desire to do so.

Now, had the M11 included an articulating rear screen, that's something I would very much want to have, so I can shoot with my camera overhead, or down on the ground.  I guess Leica hasn't done it, because the camera would be physically larger?

 

[M9reno]

7 minutes ago, MikeMyers said:

Well, to pick just one thing, I very much do NOT want a camera with a touch screen.  To me that has nothing to do with a Leica.  It's already why I did not upgrade my current Fuji X100f, and have no desire to do so.

Now, had the M11 included an articulating rear screen, that's something I would very much want to have, so I can shoot with my camera overhead, or down on the ground.  I guess Leica hasn't done it, because the camera would be physically larger?

It sounds to me like you are an obvious client for an M10-D.  No touch screen.  And an articulated screen exists for it via the optional EVF or the Fotos app.

[MikeMyers]

5 hours ago, Tailwagger said:

I think you've still missed my original point.  Imagine you walk into your local camera club, M10 dangling from your neck only to find yourself surrounded by an angry mob of FuNiCaSons who declare you an enemy of the state and are about to tear you limb from limb unless you explain to them just why an $8k or so camera with a 24 Mpx sensor, 250 shot battery life, $5K and up primes, no zooms, no IBIS, worse DR than a A7iii, etc, etc, is anything other than a symbol of decadence. 

Now consider we lucky few who have acquired an M11 who are sitting here being asked to explain just why we're so chuffed about it to folks with M9s or 10s who are staring at the $9K price tag, looking over the spec and thinking roughly the same thing.

You may very well be correct that the M11 isn't for you. But if what you're going on, just as those hypothetical FuNiCaSons, is the feature list, you're failing to account for your own experience with the M10 and how that camera transcends its specs and price tag. You know the brilliance of the 10, so do I; I owned one for over 3 years and 50K frames. For me, while I remain fond of that camera, I'm happy to have moved on. So you're certainly right; try it for yourself. It may speak to you, it may not. Those are the only words that should matter.

I think I miss the whole point of what you just wrote.  With the exception of the Menu System I'm sure I would be happy with an M11, just as I'm happy now with an M10.  It's a tool, to do what I need, and I don't see a huge benefit for me in upgrading - I already have everything I "need".  I expect I would enjoy the M11 just as much as the M10, with one exception which for me is a big negative.  Again, I need to try one in my own hands, before I can say anything for sure.  ......I'm not thinking along the lines of what you described.  And I'm certainly not saying the M11 isn't for me - until I see it, and work with it, I'm not qualified to say anything like that.  I'm also not saying the M11 "isn't for me" (yet).  

[otto.f]

32 minutes ago, shirubadanieru said:

First two pics

Where did you focus on and with what lens?

[Alberti]

Sure the M11 kicked me to the ground. Such a quality, it blows me away. Large files? I already upgraded my image file system to 4TB SSD to be prepared, so that is not keeping me back.

But . .

I have been looking at my prints again, 40cm or 60 cm wide, and the M240 performs well. In detail. In colour rendering (in a lot of ways similar to the M11 I guess. So do I need to rush?

Yes, -- For the weight (compare - M240 @ 680 g is heavy, a chunk, the chrome M11 is just a tad lighter, but the black one looks a lot more promising), thickness, manageability of the body . . . and improvements in light measurement, low light, difficult artificial/LED light etc. (When the M240 was made, there was more Tungsten and less Led than now and I love the evening photo's.

But is this enough?

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[otto.f]

44 minutes ago, MikeMyers said:

images appear even better than "reality

Which is what the first M10 and the M240 did, and probably just as bad as Apple, because I couldn't come back to neutral 'vericolors',, with whatever slides in whatever app.

Edited January 21, 2022 by otto.f

[shirubadanieru]

5 minutes ago, otto.f said:

Where did you focus on and with what lens?

Lux pre-asph, both shot wide open and compressed here, they are actually as sharp as they can be with a lux pre-asph 35mm at f1.4 if you look at the actual file. Focus was on my friend and for the shot I believe it was on the man inside

Edited January 21, 2022 by shirubadanieru