Why I will not be getting a M11...

[Ouroboros]

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This unbelievably silly aspect of the shutter opening  and staying open whilst the camera is switched on seems to be a perfect opportunity for sensor cleaning kit manufacturers to cash in.

 

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[shirubadanieru]

41 minutes ago, Ouroboros said:

This unbelievably silly aspect of the shutter opening  and staying open whilst the camera is switched on seems to be a perfect opportunity for sensor cleaning kit manufacturers to cash in.

 

Again isn’t this how every single mirrorless camera works? Including the SL2, and so on? It’s nothing new in the photography world, and although I do prefer the old style of metering (I shoot an M9) I’m pretty sure that this new metering format will not bring in any more dust than the M9 or other camera, otherwise every photo taken with the SL2 and other mirrorless would be filled with black dots from the dust. Actually, the M9 probably lets in more dust than the M11 : p 

[bandrews]

4 hours ago, petermullett said:

That said I do applaud Leica for the continuing development of the M camera, that's very worthy and of course I wish them every possible success with the camera, it's is though not for me at this time. There's too much "stuff" in it, too many options for what I want a digital M to be, laudable though they may well be for some, just not for me. KISS.

It must be hard to continually update such an iconic camera range to both keep it relevant in today's camera market, without losing its anachronistic niche appeal but also without it becoming a pastiche. It's easy to make a camera with all the features under the sun but to add the features to an M that most non-Leica shooters "expect" to see in an £8000 camera (we've all seen the DP Review comments!), then the M becomes an SL. It can't be all things to all people because Leica can't, and shouldn't compete with the mass produced bodies and lenses.

 

 

[Ouroboros]

3 minutes ago, shirubadanieru said:

....Actually, the M9 probably lets in more dust than the M11 : p 

I doubt you know one way or the other.

Personally, I'd prefer the shutter to stay closed.  The upgraded metering system isn't of much interest to me, I find an RBG histogram is more important.

[shirubadanieru]

3 minutes ago, Ouroboros said:

I doubt you know one way or the other.

Personally, I'd prefer the shutter to stay closed.  The upgraded metering system isn't of much interest to me, I find an RBG histogram is more important.

Same, I use sunny 16 on film, so definitely don’t need this new metering system but oh well…I guess that’s what it is now so either we get used to it or we continue to use the older Leicas, which by looking at how long the M8 / 9 last, you can still use them until probably the M14 comes out : ) 

[Stevejack]

I would be perfectly happy if they allowed an option to use the old shutter system with no metering at all. 
 

Just a plain old manual shutter, no metering, just like using an M3 or M-A.
 

That would be a nice little future firmware update. Call it ‘vintage Leica mode’ or something, their marketing guys would eat it up I’m sure. 

[neekon]

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6 hours ago, setuporg said:

Oh c'mon, I got an M9 and it sounds nothing like it.  BTW I enjoy all sounds of all Ms.  Especially the Edition 60 steely deep chime.  The M9 is film-like charming.  I added M9Ms and M9P last and enjoy their quirky music tremendously.  I keep wondering how that spring will last decades but apparently it does.

In my quick handling of M11 alongside my M10-R in the Leica store, I've not been able to be bothered by the sound of the shutter nor by the LV behavior.  I wonder if solitary study makes it louder... it must be quiet on that 34th floor...:)

I was being a bit colorful and hyperbolic last night.   I had had a few beers with friends, so was not as articulate as I could've been.  No the sounds is not exactly the same the M9 series.  I noticed it most when testing it at work actually.  I was in my office doing test shots, and it just felt louder, more noticeable, and slower compared to my M10R. Maybe testing it in a smaller semi-windowless room was a mistake, but my first reaction with it was how loud the clunk is when turning it on, and how loud and slow the shutter felt, even at 1/4000 of a second.
It wasn't as bad when I was outside walking, but again when I got home taking photos of my wife and dog, it just had that loud, slow feel again.  

Its surprisingly not quiet on the 34th floor.    

6 hours ago, bernstein1234 said:

Since you have bought it, I really appreciate your honest feedback. Honestly, my purpose of this thread is not to douse ice-cold bucket of water over potential M11 users, but just to let those who wish to purchase know of the pros and cons and the idea of owning this M11. For me, even if I have the means, I'd skip this and get the next one with IBIS, or at least when it comes in chrome/brass.

And I dont really want to douse ice cold water on the M11 either.  I want to like it, thats why I want it.  I want to fall for it like I have so many Ms before.   But my initial reaction to those previous Ms(with the exception of the M240 and M10R) were all extremely positive.   
My first M, the M8.2 I loved it from the moment I picked it up. 
My Second M, the M9, was just a continuation of that love
Third was the M240, It was not as much of a love affair with it, never quite bonded with it
next was the M-D-262, again love at first pick up. Have pictures from it all over my walls 
M10, same thing as before
M10R- loved it, but had to wait till Capture One supported it, so returned it until Capture One supported it, and then rebought the black paint one
and now at M11

I hope that my M11 experience becomes a positive one.  I really do
 

6 hours ago, elmars said:

Just to be clear: Shutter operation and shutter sound was better at the M10. But not faster I think. We discussed this intensly between the beta-testers and most of us agreed with this. The tests and Leica confirmed us. One or two of us were not that shure.

The sound of the M is important. I cannot change Your feelings about that. I only can say it seems to me very similar to the M10 sound but not that nice.

And of course Leica could have constructed a new shutter for the M11 to avoid the clunk when starting the camera (only then!!!!). I would have been happy about that but not about the then higher price.

I need to do some testing, which ill do today a bit.  But it does feel the M10R, in a quick and dirty comparison yesterday, was faster by maybe 1/2-1/4 of a second.  Not a huge difference, but definitely noticeable when you are used to the M10/M10R shutter for 4yrs.  

I am sure the testers and Leica went back and forth, I just wonder why no one could've foreseen this being polarizing and divisive.   Honestly I couldn't care less about the baseplate, I think the SD card under the battery is stupid, but no stupider than a baseplate.  But the shutter, the operation of the camera is so essential to an M, and to take what feels like a step back seems very unLeica.  

I will use the camera more today to see how I feel.  Do some comparisons in LV vs regular mode, and various other ones.  I wasnt able to really test it much yesterday sadly.  
The sound isn't as refined feeling as the M10(is the best way I can think of). Its not worse, its not better, it just feels unfinished.  

They have a perfectly good shutter mechanism with the SL2/SL2-S.  I think a lot of this would've been solved if they used a shutter mechanism closer to the SL series, or really any mirrorless.   The shutter is always open until you take the shot.   Then no clunk on start up, or shut down.  But you are right, developing a brand new shutter mechanism for a 9000$ camera would have been a bit much.  

[Jk1002]

I would think we either see a paired down model like with the SL2 or we see an improved model with nicer shutter within a year.

So, giving that I can't travel much right now to begin with I am fighting my acquisition syndrome.

 

I find to go from 6600$ to 9000$ within 4 years bit much to swallow and I don't see anything except the MP on the sensor that drives this. 

Hoping they do maybe 7K with 24 or 30ish on the MPs

 

JK

[CGarrard]

1 hour ago, shirubadanieru said:

Again isn’t this how every single mirrorless camera works? Including the SL2, and so on? It’s nothing new in the photography world, and although I do prefer the old style of metering (I shoot an M9) I’m pretty sure that this new metering format will not bring in any more dust than the M9 or other camera, otherwise every photo taken with the SL2 and other mirrorless would be filled with black dots from the dust. Actually, the M9 probably lets in more dust than the M11 : p 

Actually no. Many mirrorless cameras keep the shutter open until you make an exposure using EFC. This means no opening, shutting, then re-opening, it just shuts, then opens. With no extra step/delay. I was trying to give you the difference between the M11 and Typ 240 in my previous post. The Typ 240 can be made to work exactly like the M9, wheras the M11 cannot.

In the M9 the shutter is already in a closed position, opens then closes during exposure, two steps. Same goes for the M240 in "classic" metering. In live view, or "advanced" metering, the Typ 240 opens the shutter when you turn on the camera (you hear a clunk), stays open... it closes, and re-opens only during exposure (then stays open). So you can set it two ways, and you know which I prefer!

Two steps of the shutter curtain is fine for me, whether or not the shutter is already open prior to turning the camera on, or its closed. It sounds correct. The M11 does not, and it adds extra wear to the shutter as well. 

Here is another way of the M11 being described by another poster here that takes 4 clunky steps: "I know you weren't directing this at me, but the problem is that the camera can't be used in the same way as the M10R. On the M11, you can't fire off a shot without the shutter closing, opening, closing again and then re-opening.     On the M10R when in manual shutter mode, the shutter only had to open / close."

 

[CGarrard]

55 minutes ago, neekon said:

 But you are right, developing a brand new shutter mechanism for a 9000$ camera would have been a bit much.  

Yeah, the issue is that Leica is forcing it to be used with metering off the sensor vs. the shutter curtain. Apparently the front of the shutter curtain can't be used for metering any longer. So it's 4 steps vs. 2 to take one shot. EW! Just like the old DSLR days when live view didn't even have contrast detect! It would have to open, acquire focus, release shutter open/closed, then go back open again after the exposure. Flap flap flap flap!

That's why the M-P Typ 240 is so brilliant. You can set it two ways to meter which has a big effect on the shutter curtain cycle and how the camera sounds when you turn it on/off. You can use it just like the M9. Surprises me the M240 didn't grow on you. Did you try either metering mode?

Edited January 14, 2022 by CGarrard

[neekon]

1 minute ago, CGarrard said:

Yeah, the issue is that Leica is forcing it to be used with metering off the sensor vs. the shutter curtain. Apparently the front of the shutter curtain can't be used for metering any longer. So it's 4 steps vs. 2 to take one shot. EW! Just like the old DSLR days when live view didn't even have contrast detect! It would have to open, focus, acquire, release shutter open/closed, then go back open again after the exposure. Flap flap flap flap!

That's why the M-P Typ 240 is so brilliant. You can set it two ways to meter which has a big effect on the shutter curtain cycle and how the camera sounds when you turn it on/off. You can use it just like the M9. Surprises me the M240 didn't grow on you. Did you try either metering mode?

My issues with the M240 were more just the sensor itself I couldn't get on it.  
I only ever used any of Ms with the off-curtain metering.  

There are plenty of mirrorless cameras that use off-sensor metering and dont have the same shutter type that the M11 has.     The M11 does not have a metering mode that allows you to use it like any other M.  

[SrMi]

2 hours ago, Stevejack said:

I would be perfectly happy if they allowed an option to use the old shutter system with no metering at all. 
 

Just a plain old manual shutter, no metering, just like using an M3 or M-A.
 

That would be a nice little future firmware update. Call it ‘vintage Leica mode’ or something, their marketing guys would eat it up I’m sure. 

The problem is, once that change is published, everybody already would have gotten used to the new metering and shutter .

[Dennis]

My short answer is NO, I won't get an M11, at least not this version. Yes, I had expectations, of course. IMHO, It's not a legend or a new revolutionary camera as advertised. I believe there are a few steps back, which is definitely not good. It looks like they want to implement necessarily some Q/SL features on an M body., But I really believe that an M should remain an M, don't make it hybrid, please.  It's a busy week, but I will write a detailed answer soon explaining why not.

[SrMi]

4 hours ago, Ouroboros said:

This unbelievably silly aspect of the shutter opening  and staying open whilst the camera is switched on seems to be a perfect opportunity for sensor cleaning kit manufacturers to cash in.

 

All mirrorless cameras do it that way, why do you consider it silly? 

[CGarrard]

22 minutes ago, SrMi said:

All mirrorless cameras do it that way, why do you consider it silly? 

Actually they don't. Check out my previous replies on this subject. There are 4 steps to taking one exposure for the M11, with most mirrorless cameras it's two- because they leave the shutter curtain open 100% of the time. In short, and summarized, there's too much flippy flappy and delay for the M11 to feel like an immediate decisive camera, at least in comparison to previous M's. Bout as simple as I can sum it up

[AAK]

12 hours ago, neekon said:

I disagree.  It is not polarizing. it is downright bad.  
Leica should be ashamed of this camera.  It should not have been released.  Honestly, it feels like it needed more time being designed and tested, from actual users and not fanboys and people who just gush over anything Leica.  

Has there ever been a new M that has not generated similar hostility in these fora? I have the sense that every single new model is greeted with derision by some people, only to become the gold standard against which future cameras are, in their turn, dismissed as being unworthy.

🙄

[fotografr]

12 hours ago, Stevejack said:

Full size version with no noise reduction applied in lightroom. ISO 10,000

Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here…

Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members!

I think you pissed that guy off.

[SrMi]

20 minutes ago, CGarrard said:

Actually they don't. Check out my previous replies on this subject. There are 4 steps to taking one exposure for the M11, with most mirrorless cameras it's two- because they leave the shutter curtain open 100% of the time. In short, and summarized, there's too much flippy flappy and delay for the M11 to feel like an immediate decisive camera, at least in comparison to previous M's. Bout as simple as I can sum it up

Sorry, I could not find it. Could you please point me to a mirrorless camera that does not keep the shutter open while the camera is on?

You wrote: This unbelievably silly aspect of the shutter opening  and staying open whilst the camera is switched on...

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Hallo,

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[Ouroboros]

6 minutes ago, SrMi said:

 

You wrote: This unbelievably silly aspect of the shutter opening  and staying open whilst the camera is switched on...

No, he didn’t write that.  I did, in the context of Leica M cameras. 
 

[SrMi]

2 minutes ago, Ouroboros said:

No, he didn’t write that.  I did, in the context of Leica M cameras. 
 

Yes, he didn't write it, but CGarrard replied to me on my reply to you.

Still like to hear from you or CGarrard about a mirrorless camera that does not keep the shutter open when the camera is turned on.