Why I will not be getting a M11...

[Stevejack]

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3 minutes ago, SrMi said:

RF mode is different in M11. The shutter is open before you press the shutter. Pressing the shutter closes the shutter first. That is where the difference in sound and feel comes.

This is how the M10 worked too - the shutter had to be open for live view to be working. Then it would close, and then open-close to take the shot, then open again to re-engage live view. 

3 minutes ago, SrMi said:

It is nothing like M10-R's clunky live-view.

I've heard this from a few people now and it's great news. I won't get mine until next week. 

[neekon]

22 minutes ago, Stevejack said:

I know you weren't directing this at me, but the problem is that the camera can't be used in the same way as the M10R. On the M11, you can't fire off a shot without the shutter closing, opening, closing again and then re-opening.     On the M10R when in manual shutter mode, the shutter only had to open / close.

Even if the difference is imperceptible in terms of shutter lag, the sound that the shutter makes when it takes a shot has a lot to do with the user experience. 

Lots of us hated using the M10 cameras in live-view mode because it just sounded slow... rather than a 'snick' when you took a picture, you heard the shutter close, open, close, and open again. The M11 has apparently improved things here, but for those of us who hated the M10 live-view shutter sound we're a bit put off by it.

This last paragraph really sums things up perfectly. 

6 minutes ago, setuporg said:

I don't get it.  In RF mode the shutter works just as well as in M10-R.  What's the problem here?  If you don't like the LV behavior you don't have to use it right?

The M11 is the M10R in live view mode, all the time.  It can never ben turned off.  The shutter has to pen when the camera is turned on, has to close when the camera is turned off.   The shutter has to "close-open-close and then re-open to take a single photo. 4 movements for one photos vs 2 movements in the old system.   Now alot of this could be solved with a electronic front curtain mode which would reduce that a bit.  

6 minutes ago, SrMi said:

I think you are experiencing the effect of "change aversion." People dislike something more because it is a change than because it is bad. 
Leica has used the new M11 menu in its mirrorless cameras. Once you get used to the new one, the M10-R menu will feel comparably archaic.

Give it time :).

You might be right, which is why ive willing to give it more of a chance.  I might fall in love with it, I might hate it even more, but there's no way to know until ive used it. 

The menu system is the least of my concerns.  The biggest and only concern I have is the new meter/shutter mechanism. 
Every other aspect of the camera I can live with or get on with.   
 

[Crem]

46 minutes ago, SrMi said:

No EFCS on any Leica camera. It would be nice to have it in M11 in order to prevent a possible shutter-shock. The only alternative is using the electronic shutter. Very silent :).

Too bad. Hopefully they can add it in a firmware update. EFCS is a fantastic feature.

Unfortunately electronic shutter is less useful for me (moving subjects). I've forgotten to turn it off a few times on my Sonys and gotten burned by it due to slow readout. Hopefully the M11-R gets a stacked Sony sensor like the A1 or Z9. Then I can use electronic shutter  for almost all shots. 😄

Edited January 14, 2022 by Crem

[neekon]

7 minutes ago, setuporg said:

It sounded just fine and I've not felt there's a lag.  Haven't bothered me a bit.

It does not sounds fine.  it sounds like an M8 or M9.  with a "click-rewind" sounds.  
It sounds like the M10R in live view, which is to say awful

7 minutes ago, SrMi said:

RF mode is different in M11. The shutter is open before you press the shutter. Pressing the shutter closes the shutter first. That is where the difference in sound and feel comes. IMO, the difference is too small to be relevant, others disagree.

It is nothing like M10-R's clunky live-view. I assume neekon is using M10-R's live view, because he is missing Perspective Control. Live view is a lot better in M11.

I never touched the live view mode of my M10R, it was extremely clunky.   I mention PC as it was missing when I was comparing the 2 cameras today.  
Live view is actually better on the M11, I prefer using the M11 in live view mode, it seems to be the better mode.  In Rangefinder mode is where my issues are.  Rangefinder mode is worse on the M11, a lot worse 

[elmars]

Curtain metering will not come back. There is no measuring cell in the body anymore. We have to live with this.

Startup-/wakeup-time is about one second. That is 1/2 second shorter than the M10 but still too long. The bigger battery helps. If You forbid the camera to go to sleep there is no wakeup. The battery power is good enough for that.

The shutter opening sound at startup is dirturbing in the beginning. But You get used to. I now see it as an advantage: You can hear when the camera is ready to shoot. But despite this I would rather have it not. Again: We have to live with it. Removing it requires a new shutter.

The reaction time of the shutter is as good as the one of the M10. Leica worked hard on this and speeded many things up. Much was software work they said. Jono Slack and Sean Reid tried to measure and confirmed Leicas statement. It corresponds to my personal feeling out of a direct comparison with the M10.

So You will not miss any shoot because of the speed of the camera. But I can´t help if You don´t like the sound. I only can say: I love the sound of the M10 more but I got used to the one of the M11 fast.

[neekon]

1 minute ago, Crem said:

Too bad. Hopefully they can add it in a firmware update. EFCS is a fantastic addition for a lot of people like landscape photographers. Much less useful for people who shoot moving subjects. I've forgotten to turn it off a few times on my Sonys and gotten burned by EFCS due to slow readout. Hopefully the M11-R gets a stacked Sony sensor like the A1 or Z9. Then I can use EFCS for almost all shots. 😄

EFCS would help the M11 significantly.  It would change the shutter from "close-open-close-open" to "close-open". but nicer

but sadly, its a user improvement, so Leica won't do it.  Too much risk to admit they were wrong

[shirubadanieru]

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1 hour ago, neekon said:

I actually bought one.  I regret it.  

after 14hrs of use And this might change as I get used to it.  But my initial reaction is one of regret and frustration 

I think the finish of the black one is appalling. I think the shutter feels/sounds and acts cheap and unrefined.  I think the “Clunk” on start up is equally unrefined.  
It feels the menu is missing a lot that the M10R BP had.  
The SD under the battery is just complete bullshit.  Its like “lets remove the bottom plate to refine the bottom, but also make the SD card even more inaccessible”

I feel as thought the camera and system as a whole took a gigantic step forward with regards to the sensor and overall tech behind it.  However it is a gigantic step back in regards to actually using the camera .  

I need to use it more and see if the faults are worth the images, however currently I am close to tossing it out my 34th floor window 

Can you elaborate on the finish? From the videos / pictures it just looks like a different shade of black with a slight different touch to it? Also shutter sound is it that different from M10P/R? From other reviews this wasn’t really raised. 

The SD part I’m fine with it, given that 64GB internal memory would eliminate the need for SDs for me.

[shirubadanieru]

1 hour ago, 2M6TTLs said:

Seems they updated everything except the very thing that makes the M camera special..the rangefinder.

Is it still going to go out of alignment in use? If so I wouldn't get it, because it will  (still) have the same issue as current M's. Odd to me that they didn't improve the rangefinder.  

60MP is far more than I need. Reason I went for the SL2s and not the SL2.

About the elmars' tests that posters are referring to. It seems he gets "grainier" images at 18MP setting with this camera. I couldn't even say I experienced that even with my old Olympus micro-four thirds camera at just 16MP! So there shouldn't really be any issues with shooting at 18MP with a brand new Leica.

To be honest, I’ve used Leica cameras for almost 10 years, from film to digital, and never had any issues with rangefinders going out of alignment, not sure what people do to get them misaligned, but that’s never been a problem at all for me across all Leica models. 

[neekon]

Just now, elmars said:

Curtain metering will not come back. There is no measuring cell in the body anymore. We have to live with this.

Startup-/wakeup-time is about one second. That is 1/2 second shorter than the M10 but still too long. The bigger battery helps. If You forbid the camera to go to sleep there is no wakeup. The battery power is good enough for that.

The shutter opening sound at startup is dirturbing in the beginning. But You get used to. I now see it as an advantage: You can hear when the camera is ready to shoot. But despite this I would rather have it not. Again: We have to live with it. Removing it requires a new shutter.

The reaction time of the shutter is as good as the one of the M10. Leica worked hard on this and speeded many things up. Much was software work they said. Jono Slack and Sean Reid tried to measure and confirmed Leicas statement. It corresponds to my personal feeling out of a direct comparison with the M10.

So You will not miss any shoot because of the speed of the camera. But I can´t help if You don´t like the sound. I only can say: I love the sound of the M10 more but I got used to the one of the M11 fast.

Just going to post this on both threads I am messaging on?  

No ofcourse it isn't coming back, its been physically removed from the camera,.  So yes, we have to live with it.

It feels longer, turning the camera on to the "clunk" feels to be about 2-3 seconds.  In the M10 it was less of an issue because there was no audible indicator that the camera was slow to start up, now there is.   Why can the SL2 start up instantly, but the M11(with the same processor is slower than a Digital Rebel from the early 2000s?  
So a work around the the way to get the camera to work the same way my old camera worked?  My new camera needs to be "forbid" from going to sleep to get the same responsiveness at startup that my M10 did?     

I hope I do get used to it, it would be great to have the same love for the camera you and everyone else seems to.   Would be nice not to have it though and Again, we have to live with it, seeing a running theme

It might be, it might not be.  It sounds like it isn't, it feels like it isn't, but Im sure it is.  I am sure Leica worked really hard on all the solutions and ways to make this work and instead of using a mechanism from their wildly popular SL2 series that is much better in this regard, they went with the worse more clunky solution that the M10 used.  Feels they could've worked harder on it.    I will have to check out Sean Reids sites to see what his measurements show.  My personal feeling, its slower than the M10R, by a noticeable difference.  

I might, I might not.  This rant/frustration/posting/anger is not about a shutter sound, but yes the M11 sound is much worse than the M10.  

I do hope I get used to it.  I will try it more and more as the days go on.  I bought Capture One 22, which supports it, I am looking forward to using it more.  I just wish my initial reaction and feeling toward it, were positive and not overwhelmingly negative 

[neekon]

8 minutes ago, shirubadanieru said:

Can you elaborate on the finish? From the videos / pictures it just looks like a different shade of black with a slight different touch to it? Also shutter sound is it that different from M10P/R? From other reviews this wasn’t really raised. 

The SD part I’m fine with it, given that 64GB internal memory would eliminate the need for SDs for me.

The finish feels "rough" trying to think of a good example to compare It to.  It is not just a different shade of black. 
It almost feels like an extremely fine grain of sandpaper.   it will take a lot of getting used to, and not sure how it will wear.  
The shutter sounds and feel is more like the M10P/R in live view, but with the screen off.  

I prefer to use the SD cards, but I can see plugging the camera in as an option as well.  I just find the placement of the SD card slot idiotic. 

[CGarrard]

Yeah, I'm sorry but the M11 announcement makes my recent M-P Typ 240 purchase (and less recent M9-P purchase) feel even sweeter. For me the M experience is how the camera handles, sounds, operates, and feels in hand. It's so much about the tactile and haptic feedback M cameras give me. Image quality is second to that experience and always has been.

It's easy to forgive image quality not being the very best, but I can't forgive bad handling, odd sounds, unintuitive operation, etc. Sony cameras are a perfect example of that. No thanks! Not saying the M11 isn't a good camera overall but some of the decisions to its design are a step backwards for me in comparison to past M designs (with the steps forward being in areas of non priority for me). 

I just wish Leica would make an M-D  with a real shutter recock mechanism/lever, native ISO 50-12,800 range on a mechanical dial, and focus the design completely on the highest quality haptic and tactile feedback possible. To me that would be one of the purist M experiences possible. I haven't been excited about a new M design since the M-P Typ 240 and Typ 262 cameras.

[neekon]

Just now, CGarrard said:

Yeah, I'm sorry but the M11 announcement makes my recent M-P Typ 240 purchase (and less recent M9-P purchase) feel even sweeter. For me the M experience is how the camera handles, sounds, operates, and feels in hand. It's so much about the tactile and haptic feedback M cameras give me. Image quality is second to that experience and always has been.

It's easy to forgive image quality not being the very best, but I can't forgive bad handling, odd sounds, unintuitive operation, etc. Sony cameras are a perfect example of that. No thanks! Not saying the M11 isn't a good camera overall but some of the decisions to its design are a step backwards for me in comparison to past M designs (with the steps forward being in areas of non priority for me). 

I just wish Leica would make an M-D  with a real shutter recock mechanism/lever, native ISO 50-12,800 range on a mechanical dial, and focus the design completely on the highest quality haptic and tactile feedback possible. To me that would be one of the purist M experiences possible. I haven't been excited about a new M design since the M-P Typ 240 and Typ 262 cameras.

I say you made a wise choice.  The MP240 is great
The M-D is awesome, I loved and miss my M_D and M10D. 2 of the best camera Leica ever made.  

No M will ever be the same again.  If the M11 is where Leica sees the M going, hold onto the older Ms, they will be worth their weight in gold soon
 

[neekon]

its late here.  I am going to sleep. 

I am going to do more testing and using of the M11 tomorrow and hope my feelings change.  

 

[SrMi]

15 minutes ago, neekon said:

EFCS would help the M11 significantly.  It would change the shutter from "close-open-close-open" to "close-open". but nicer

but sadly, its a user improvement, so Leica won't do it.  Too much risk to admit they were wrong

Adding EFCS will help preventing shutter shock (in case there is one) and will change the shutter sound a bit.

[mdemeyer]

Although I have not checked I rather suspect there is a center weighted metering mode that, using the sensor, is similar to the older off-the-shutter metering.  Can someone confirm?

[shirubadanieru]

7 minutes ago, CGarrard said:

Yeah, I'm sorry but the M11 announcement makes my recent M-P Typ 240 purchase (and less recent M9-P purchase) feel even sweeter. For me the M experience is how the camera handles, sounds, operates, and feels in hand. It's so much about the tactile and haptic feedback M cameras give me. Image quality is second to that experience and always has been.

It's easy to forgive image quality not being the very best, but I can't forgive bad handling, odd sounds, unintuitive operation, etc. Sony cameras are a perfect example of that. No thanks! Not saying the M11 isn't a good camera overall but some of the decisions to its design are a step backwards for me in comparison to past M designs (with the steps forward being in areas of non priority for me). 

I just wish Leica would make an M-D  with a real shutter recock mechanism/lever, native ISO 50-12,800 range on a mechanical dial, and focus the design completely on the highest quality haptic and tactile feedback possible. To me that would be one of the purist M experiences possible. I haven't been excited about a new M design since the M-P Typ 240 and Typ 262 cameras.

Yeah I have my M9P in black paint, which to me is still the most beautiful digital Leica ever designed, and I love it’s quirks, even the loud shutter ahah 

That being said, I am thinking to upgrade to the M11, but I’m starting to wonder if I will miss the M9. Even the M10 didn’t do it for me…I tried the M10 (it was ok…), the M10D (it was awesome, but still preferred the design of the original M-D with the ISO in the back), and the M10M (crazy ISO, but prefer rendering of M9 or M9M)…I just did not enjoy the M10 platform and ended up reverting to the M9.

I am really hoping that I can finally enjoy the new M11 platform and all the cameras that will spawn from it. The lighter the camera the better, so I’m really excited about the new black finish (but concerned that some people say it looks like crap, and also how it would look like with silver lenses (if anyone can share some pics of silver lens with the black body that would be awesome!!) 

The other thing is that to me too, the ideal iteration of the M camera would be M-D with an actual cocking lever, and just really focused on the basics to make it feel as close as it can get to using a film Leica M. The M11 does not seem to be that camera…but at the same time I’m curious enough to try it out.

Edited January 14, 2022 by shirubadanieru

[SrMi]

20 minutes ago, Crem said:

Too bad. Hopefully they can add it in a firmware update. EFCS is a fantastic addition for a lot of people like landscape photographers. Much less useful for people who shoot moving subjects. I've forgotten to turn it off a few times on my Sonys and gotten burned by EFCS due to slow readout. Hopefully the M11-R gets a stacked Sony sensor like the A1 or Z9. Then I can use EFCS for almost all shots. 😄

Readout speed is not an issue with EFCS as the second shutter is mechanical. EFCS is as good for moving people as is the mechanical shutter.

You may be thinking of the electronic shutter, which is also available in M11.

[setuporg]

The black finish I've casually caressed today was totally fine.  No bruises.

People in the store were attracted to the black one.  Most of those on the waiting list want a black one.

I want a silver one for the flagship M, always.  The silver one feels exactly the same.  The battery door is weirdly white but I can put an "I voted" sticker on it.

[Crem]

14 minutes ago, SrMi said:

Readout speed is not an issue with EFCS as the second shutter is mechanical. EFCS is as good for moving people as is the mechanical shutter.

You may be thinking of the electronic shutter, which is also available in M11.

I mistyped. It’s late here and I should be sleeping. I use EFCS almost 100% of the time of my Sonys and I was hoping it would be in the M11. I almost never use the normal mechanical shutter or electronic shutter on the Sonys. I really think an EFCS option for the M11 will make customers happy. In my previous comment I was definitely talking about electronic shutter. 

Edited January 14, 2022 by Crem

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[setuporg]

35 minutes ago, neekon said:

It does not sounds fine.  it sounds like an M8 or M9.  with a "click-rewind" sounds.  

Oh c'mon, I got an M9 and it sounds nothing like it.  BTW I enjoy all sounds of all Ms.  Especially the Edition 60 steely deep chime.  The M9 is film-like charming.  I added M9Ms and M9P last and enjoy their quirky music tremendously.  I keep wondering how that spring will last decades but apparently it does.

In my quick handling of M11 alongside my M10-R in the Leica store, I've not been able to be bothered by the sound of the shutter nor by the LV behavior.  I wonder if solitary study makes it louder... it must be quiet on that 34th floor...:)

Edited January 14, 2022 by setuporg