Leica M12 -- your next camera?

[Smudgerer]

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These desires for more and more electronic "enhancements" are in my view the death knell of the Leica M and it's hitherto long proven KISS philosophy and the inherent complications may well be a financial quagmire for Leica down the road. Already with the troubles that plague the + 2 years old M11 versions, ( ok before lct lights up again on this.....some M11's ), are for me at least indicative of a troubling lack of a skills at Wetzlar in electronics. They seem to just throw new versions out barely fully field tested and keep their fingers crossed that new buyers will be ok with being the "guinea pigs", how's that worked out so far?

I want LESS in my Leica M's, what I do want is rock solid reliability with a much improved QC on products that ship new plus of course a much better and more responsive Service department that will turn around repairs in weeks rather than months, ( my M10-R with a LCD that needs replacing has been at Wetzlar since December '23 and still no completion date........How hard is a LCD to replace? )...........But Leica seems to be chasing something else into the fog these days.

Edited May 22, 2024 by Smudgerer

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[tomasis7]

4 minutes ago, Smudgerer said:

These desires for more and more electronic "enhancements" are in my view the death knell of the Leica M and it's hitherto long proven KISS philosophy and the inherent complications may well be a financial quagmire for Leica down the road. Already with the troubles that plague the + 2 years old M11 versions, ( ok before lct lights up again on this.....some M11's ), are for me at least indicative of a troubling lack of a skills at Wetzlar in electronics. They seem to just throw new versions out barely fully field tested and keep their fingers crossed that new buyers will be ok with being the "guinea pigs", how's that worked out so far?

I want LESS in my Leica M's, what I do want is rock solid reliability with a much improved QC on products that ship new plus of course a much better and more responsive Service department that will turn around repairs in weeks rather than months, ( my M10-R with a LCD that needs replacing has been at Wetzlar since December '23 and still no completion date........How hard is a LCD to replace? )...........But Leica seems to be chasing something else into the fog these days.

+1

Leica M EVF will never happen or lose its the last unique selling point for the company. Don't touch the optical VF and rangefinder, at least. 

We have plenty of EVF compact bodies in the market.

Sell a EVF accessory like Visoflex 3.0 instead. 

[SrMi]

1 hour ago, Alberti said:

No I don't want this in-build Leitz feature to connect the flow of pictures (I assume it was built in for a purpose) . . . 😥

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Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members!

 

I assume you are referring to the shutter sound. How long have you been using your M11 that the shutter sound still bothers you? 

[lct]

1 hour ago, Smudgerer said:

[...Already with the troubles that plague the + 2 years old M11 versions, (ok before lct lights up again on this.....some M11's...]

Congrats for quoting me but i would say a vast majority of M11 cameras are trouble free actually. Most if not all M11 users will be happy when the expected firmware update comes this month hopefully. The wind of revolt blowing through this forum should calm down then normally . Touch wood 😎

[Smogg]

4 hours ago, lct said:

It is not the first time i read this. I don't know where it comes from (not the LUF hopefully) but all my mirrorless (or Visoflex) snaps are shot at working aperture. Can be at full aperture when i work wide open but it can be at f/8 and even f/11 as well and it is true at all focal lengths including UWA. Easy to do, suffice it to use focus magnification. This way you can nail focus, you can see your DoF and you avoid focus shift issues if any. Worth a try 😎

This is not the first time you are reading this because many people think so. To focus at f8, I need just a split second, during which I shift the focus from infinity until the vertical lines coincide in OVF.
If I use EVF and zoom, I will spend a long time looking for the point of best sharpness, making increasingly shorter movements with the focus back and forth, not to mention the fact that I must first press the zoom button (which works with a delay as well as automatic zoom) and lose the whole scene from view.

[Smogg]

5 hours ago, jgeenen said:

I agree - if Leica just implements plain old EVF technology into a new M body - one of the big unique selling points would be lost. But if Leica addresses that shortcomings, the advantages of EVF (precise field of view and exposure preview, no dependency on minimum focus distances and focal lengths, support in dark surroundings) might overrule...

What do I mean?

All current EVF manual focus aid are based on contrast focus methods. Those benefit from large apertures. If a phase detect focus could be implemented (e.g. something like splitscreen that mimics the current rangefinder patch), the first shortcoming is addressed.

Faster refresh rates and more modern LCD/OLED implementations will make the second disadvantage of EVF disappear more and more. 

When scientists invent an EVF with a dynamic range of more than 24 stops (like the human eye), perhaps I will reconsider my opinion and agree with you😀

[SrMi]

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8 hours ago, Smogg said:

1. With the EVF you can only focus when the aperture is wide open, and I, for example, almost never shoot wide open.

With EVF, I regularly focus wide open and close the aperture before shooting. That works well with EVF tilted by 90 degrees (you see the aperture and EVF).

On the other hand, Leica's lenses shine when shooting wide open :).

Edited May 22, 2024 by SrMi

[Smogg]

5 minutes ago, SrMi said:

With EVF, I regularly focus wide open and close the aperture before shooting. That works well with EVF tilted by 90 degrees (you see the aperture and EVF).

On the other hand, Leica's lenses shine when shooting wide open :).

I agree that Leica lenses are great wide open, but I don't shoot portraits where it's needed. The foreground, middle and background are important to me. It’s interesting how many open aperture shots you can count from Henri Cartier-Bresson or Alex Web😀

I hate lenses with character, like the Nocti 0.95 with its swirling bokeh. It distracts from the shot. Ideally, I try to make sure that the viewer who sees my photo does not notice the technique used, post-processing and the aberration (character) of the lens.

From a lens I need good sharpness and good micro-contrast and minimal distortion
 

[Smogg]

26 minutes ago, SrMi said:

With EVF, I regularly focus wide open and close the aperture before shooting. That works well with EVF tilted by 90 degrees (you see the aperture and EVF).

When the shooting position is inconvenient, I also use this technique with Visoflex

[lct]

1 hour ago, Smogg said:

[...] If I use EVF and zoom, I will spend a long time looking for the point of best sharpness, making increasingly shorter movements with the focus back and forth, not to mention the fact that I must first press the zoom button [...]

No need to press any button for auto zoom. Suffice it to turn the focus ring and it works with coded and uncoded lenses as well. I am currently testing a mirrorless camera with M lenses and a similar sensor as the M11. I can use slow shutter speeds handheld with it but i miss the auto zoom feature of the M11. Not to say that i dislike the RF mode that i still use for good enough focusing. Matter of taste and practice as usual 😎

Edited May 22, 2024 by lct

[Viv]

The M12 would ideally have a non-removable 35mm lens, SSD storage (no faffing with memory cards) and no screen.

[Smogg]

5 minutes ago, Viv said:

The M12 would ideally have a non-removable 35mm lens, SSD storage (no faffing with memory cards) and no screen.

Let's saw off the ears for the strap too😂

[lct]

2 hours ago, Al Brown said:

Studying the forums and counting the good and bad cases recently I would confidently say that, after churning out the numbers, the problem with faulty M11 software to a certain degree is somewhere at 50:50 ratio of all M11s sold in 2 years.

Another colleague has counted 60/40 if i remember well but what you're both counting are not faulty or faultless software if i'm not mistaken but M11 users having issues or not with their camera. People like me still think, rightly or wrongly, that such issues come mainly, if not only, from user errors or behaviours more so than firmware bugs, which could explain why some people have problems and others less so or none at all. Again i may be wrong but we will know the truth when the expected firmware comes this month hopefully. Until then all explanations, including mine, are just hypotheses for lack of supporting facts.

Edited May 22, 2024 by lct

[wizard]

vor 1 Stunde schrieb Smogg:

To focus at f8, I need just a split second, during which I shift the focus from infinity until the vertical lines coincide in OVF.

I fully agree with you. Unless Leica comes up with an ingenious way of replicating this rangefinder focusing experience in an EVF, any EVF M camera will be flawed. I actually use the optical viewfinder to focus very quickly, and then switch to the Visoflex 2 for composing the shot. 

Edited May 22, 2024 by wizard

[IkarusJohn]

7 hours ago, lct said:

Another colleague has counted 60/40 if i remember well but what you're both counting are not faulty or faultless software if i'm not mistaken but M11 users having issues or not with their camera. People like me still think, rightly or wrongly, that such issues come mainly, if not only, from user errors or behaviours more so than firmware bugs, which could explain why some people have problems and others less so or none at all. Again i may be wrong but we will know the truth when the expected firmware comes this month hopefully. Until then all explanations, including mine, are just hypotheses for lack of supporting facts.

I’m curious - how does user error result in bricked cameras, freezes and corrupted files?  Sure, if you use your M11 as a hammer or something else is wasn’t designed for, but everything I’ve read about the M11 is people using the camera to, umm … take photos?  Not a matter of opinion …

[Stephen.s1]

Getting back to the M 12 thing; as a manual shooter, I'd love an ISO button/wheel that stands proud and is always easily used.

Edited May 22, 2024 by Stephen.s1
flub

[algrove]

On 5/21/2024 at 3:30 PM, Al Brown said:

Oh surely not years away according to the Wetzlar Chocolate Factory timeline...

They're just high on sugar.

[hjddd]

there is one thing we can assure， M12 series will have even worse building quality than older models。 If you have every model from M9 to M11-P like me， you will understand what Iam talking about 。 

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[algrove]

Surprised to read some have a hard time with the ISO button on left side of M11. M-ISO works well if setup well. If manually adjusting way once up push it down where you have to raise up up again to change it again. If using it this way I just leave it up, but then again one can setup the camera to change ISO much easier. Just read the manual.

[algrove]

1 minute ago, hjddd said:

there is one thing we can assure， M12 series will have even worse building quality than older models。 If you have every model from M9 to M11-P like me， you will understand what Iam talking about 。 

Hey start with the 1931 Barnack 1 C or even the O series not to mention the IIIF-built like a tank and stilling going strong.