Film's Comeback

[adan]

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10 hours ago, willeica said:

 

Some reading here and not just for Adan and bags27. Do these look like companies that are about to disappear and I'm leaving out Fuji which is a massive conglomerate and not representative?

https://www.ilfordphoto.com

https://www.kodak.com/en

https://shop.lomography.com/en/films

https://camerarescue.org

And there are plenty more to find and read. This is an issue which requires looking outside the 'Leica hothouse' to fully appreciate what is happening.

William 

Can you quote either bags27 or I saying any company was "about to disappear?" Please?

Exaggeration and strawmen are beneath you, Will.

..................

Real-world (not "Leica hothouse").

Eastman Kodak revenue in 2001 (peak year) - $14 Billion

Eastman Kodak revenue in 2019 - $1.2 Billion (I use 2019 as the reference since 2020 results were obviously distorted by Covid)

https://archive.fortune.com/magazines/fortune/fortune500_archive/snapshots/2000/455.html

https://investor.kodak.com/news-releases/news-release-details/kodak-reports-full-year-2020-financial-results

Eastman Kodak is and was also a diversified conglomerate (Eastman Chemicals and other subsidiaries) just like Fujifilm - they just made worse decisions in the 2000s.

Now, as some of us know, Kodak-brand still photography film is actually "owned" by an independent entity in the UK; Kodak Alaris. Which is owned by the Kodak Pension Plan UK  (KPP) as the result of a bankruptcy settlement to fulfill Eastman Kodak's contractual obligations to former employees and retirees in the UK. That is who profits from sales of Kodak-branded still films (Eastman Kodak has a separate agreement with the motion-picture industry to produce x-amount of cine film per year, provided "Hollywood" agrees to buy x-amount of cine film per year).

As part of the deal, Kodak Alaris has a permanent agreement with Eastman Kodak in which EK produces that film in their factory, for Kodak Alaris to sell and profit by, on behalf of the UK pensioners.

Kodak Alaris' revenue from paper, photochemicals and film combined (PPF) in 2019 was: $151 million (roughly 1/3rd of Leica's last reported annual revenue in 2017). Of which "film capture" sales made up 36% ($54.36 million).

https://www.kodakalaris.com/getmedia/02b2a042-3ad2-49d4-a3ef-46aa4d9bfc3f/Kodak-Alaris-2019-Annual-Report-and-Financial-Statements.pdf.aspx

Of note, Kodak Alaris bought photographic paper and chemistry for resale under their brand from a Chinese company, Sino Promise. It appears (according to the story from the Royal Photographic Society linked below) that Kodak Alaris has now sold that entire part of its business to Sino Promise. And appears to be shifting its investments on behalf of the pensioners into more digital pursuits (AI software, and an online photo-printing service ("Kodak Moments").

https://rps.org/news/groups/analogue/2020/august/kodak-paper-chemistry-sold-to-chinese-company/

https://www.kodakmoments.com/

Harman Technologies Ltd. trading as Ilford Photo is now a wholy-owned subsidiary of Pemberstone Ventures Ltd., a holding company. According to Pemberstone's 2019 annual report, "turnover" from manufacture of photographic film and related products in 2019 was: £22.4 million.

Go to link below, and select the link for View .PDF "Group of companies' accounts made up to 31 December 2019" and see pg. 38

https://find-and-update.company-information.service.gov.uk/company/08659981/filing-history

Fujifilm does not break out film revenue/sales from their "imaging Solutions" total, which includes digital cameras and lenses, "industrial" lenses, digital projectors, etc.

.............

Them's the facts. Not "looking like," but "actually being."

I don't think they necessarily imply any company "disappearing" They clearly show the market is very small in historic terms.

Since the beginning of the film retrenchment, I've often wondered in which year Eastman Kodak's photographic film production (or global photo film production) first reached the level that it is today (or in 2012, or 2017). In either $$$ per year (adjusted) or sheets/rolls/m^2 per year).

1910? 1920? 1930? 1950?

At any rate, it was obviously "enough to survive on" - so long as costs and prices were sensibly adjusted to match.

 

[chrism]

I expect Will was referring to me for being too pessimistic. I'd just like to know who they will sell film to when the cameras no longer exist in sufficient numbers to justify making it.

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[frame-it]

2 hours ago, adan said:

Eastman Kodak revenue in 2001 (peak year) - $14 Billion

Eastman Kodak revenue in 2019 - $1.2 Billion (I use 2019 as the reference since 2020 results were obviously distorted by Covid)

 

 

does the 2001 kodak revenue number include motion picture film? because the  Arri D20 came out in 2005 & the RED camera came out in 2007

[adan]

2 hours ago, frame-it said:

does the 2001 kodak revenue number include motion picture film? because the  Arri D20 came out in 2005 & the RED camera came out in 2007

That is Eastman Kodak's revenue (gross income) from any and all sources in 2001.

As is the number below it for 2019.

[frame-it]

27 minutes ago, adan said:

That is Eastman Kodak's revenue (gross income) from any and all sources in 2001.

As is the number below it for 2019.

thanks

[willeica]

12 hours ago, adan said:

Can you quote either bags27 or I saying any company was "about to disappear?" Please?

 

No, you did not, put there was an air of 'doom and gloom' and 'will never happen' about your comments and those of others that I wanted to address. The audience here of mainly older and financially comfortable men ( not including anyone in particular in this and I do fit that exact description myself) may not really be in touch with the growing 'new film scene' which often involves young digital natives who have never used film before. From my involvement with LHSA it seems to me that film has not really come back in the US to the same extent that it has in Europe and elsewhere in the world. Film photography can continue for a long time and a lot of people currently enjoy doing it. An important point is that it is a practice that is growing. I know of one big Leica dealer in the US who is going to attend the camera tech course given by Camera Rescue in Finland. I also recommend a good read of Silvergrain Classics magazine, produced in Germany to a similar standard to LFI magazine, to any remaining doubters. 

Finally, what we are having here is a discussion and not a personal argument. It is not really worth getting agitated over film v digital, which can peacefully co-exist to use a term that was popular in the past.

William

[oldwino]

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On 12/11/2021 at 1:55 AM, willeica said:

No, you did not, put there was an air of 'doom and gloom' and 'will never happen' about your comments and those of others that I wanted to address. The audience here of mainly older and financially comfortable men ( not including anyone in particular in this and I do fit that exact description myself) may not really be in touch with the growing 'new film scene' which often involves young digital natives who have never used film before. From my involvement with LHSA it seems to me that film has not really come back in the US to the same extent that it has in Europe and elsewhere in the world. Film photography can continue for a long time and a lot of people currently enjoy doing it. An important point is that it is a practice that is growing. I know of one big Leica dealer in the US who is going to attend the camera tech course given by Camera Rescue in Finland. I also recommend a good read of Silvergrain Classics magazine, produced in Germany to a similar standard to LFI magazine, to any remaining doubters. 

Finally, what we are having here is a discussion and not a personal argument. It is not really worth getting agitated over film v digital, which can peacefully co-exist to use a term that was popular in the past.

William

I’d guess it depends on where in the US you are looking. I’ve run into many young photographers in NYC with a Nikon FM derivative around their necks. A few weeks ago in Los Angeles, as I was carrying my Leica I, I was approached by a 30-something male, who proceeded to tell me all about his “new” Hasselblad 500cm. I gave him some good tips and pointers (I think), and he seemed happy to have someone to chat with. In Oakland, recently, same thing. Young people (20 years my junior) very much interested and involved with film. 
Hopefully, they stick with it.

[Ornello]

On 12/16/2021 at 10:29 PM, oldwino said:

I’d guess it depends on where in the US you are looking. I’ve run into many young photographers in NYC with a Nikon FM derivative around their necks. A few weeks ago in Los Angeles, as I was carrying my Leica I, I was approached by a 30-something male, who proceeded to tell me all about his “new” Hasselblad 500cm. I gave him some good tips and pointers (I think), and he seemed happy to have someone to chat with. In Oakland, recently, same thing. Young people (20 years my junior) very much interested and involved with film. 
Hopefully, they stick with it.

Just don't ask them about 'vinyl'!

[oldwino]

17 hours ago, Ornello said:

Just don't ask them about 'vinyl'!

At least no one is referring to film as “celluloid” (as far as I know)! 

[bags27]

On 12/16/2021 at 10:29 PM, oldwino said:

I’d guess it depends on where in the US you are looking. I’ve run into many young photographers in NYC with a Nikon FM derivative around their necks. A few weeks ago in Los Angeles, as I was carrying my Leica I, I was approached by a 30-something male, who proceeded to tell me all about his “new” Hasselblad 500cm. I gave him some good tips and pointers (I think), and he seemed happy to have someone to chat with. In Oakland, recently, same thing. Young people (20 years my junior) very much interested and involved with film. 
Hopefully, they stick with it.

Similar story: walking around Boston with 2 Holgas, I recently bumped into a young man with a C/M. We chatted for 30 minutes, admiring each other's equipment. Turns out someone had given him a Holga, and he promised that now he'd try it too.

And the advent of lomography has become an interesting artistic reaction to (post)modernity.

[Ambro51]

I met the Most Besutiful Redhead in the World yesterday..  she had a Nikon and I was carrying my Ansco Automatic Reflex.  We hit it off...OMG found a corner and had all kinds of fun!  Then I woke up 

[Torontoamateur]

Compare a B&W film subtle renderings with highlights in tact to the Monochrome Leicas. I will take the film any day and twice on Sunday.

[IanH]

I may be playing to the choir here, but I just don’t find the digital Leica’s post the m9 to be particularly sexy or alluring. A beaten up m2 / r4 / insert next film GAS buy here, is rough, ready for use and, for me, all about getting out and enjoying the moment. 60mp and $12k ain’t for me, neither was the M262 M-D.

[pebbles]

I always find with my CL that I feel compelled to download the images as soon as i get home. But with my film Leicas i am relaxed. I can leave the images  in the camera until all 36 have been exposed and then enjoy seeing the results  There is no pressure, no rush, and I avoid urgent pictures. Much more satisfying and relaxing. Digital is urgency, film is restful. I have returned to film for my 'real' photos and am happy with the results. A bit more expensive but a real pleasure.

[John Robinson]

On 12/9/2021 at 12:28 AM, Doug A said:

I think the prism finder Nikon F may turn out to be the next Model A Ford of film cameras. I also think the prism finders by themselves might turn out to be a good investment. 

I went looking for a plain prism to put on my Nikon F2 as the meter in the Photomic head failed and I find the extra bulk irritating.  Surprise, surprise, plain finders alone are now selling for higher prices than some complete (Photomic) F2s, most of which are advertised with non-functioning meters.  It seems easier to find an F than an F2 with plain finder.  I found an almost un-used non-photomic F dating from circa 1968 that is an absolute gem.

On the positive side, I can get my mechanical Ms and Fs serviced in London whereas I am told that the late-model Contaxes and even some of the Leica Rs are beyond repair due to lack of parts.  Put a Leitax mount onto an R-series lens to use it with a Nikon and you have a camera that will still be working long after the electronic cameras have died.

[granite]

IMO it's a mistake to talk about film as if it was an ivory-billed woodpecker: something that was extinct and maybe isn't anymore or maybe it is. Film never left photography but some photographers left film. As someone who started shooting in the early 1950's I may get sidetracked now and then, seduced by the ease and versatility of digital but I still have stacks of yellow boxes littering my home, and many of them still hold unexposed Tri-X or the flavor-of-the-month slide or color negative film. The economics of film may have shifted but it takes a lot of DNG files on a $9000 digital camera to offset the cost of the same number of film images, even at today's prices.

I was an early adopter of desktop computers and digital audio and two things I've learned about digital anything is that (1) the failure of one key subcomponent can render your multi-thousand dollar super whizbang dead as a dodo, and (2) eventually manufacturers won't make or stock replacement boards or chips or whatever, turning that super whizbang into an unrepairable but very expensive paperweight.

The M3 didn't replace the IIIG, it just added another set of options to what was already there and LTM lenses are just as usable on a M6 or a M10 as they were on a III. The most sensitive and perhaps failure-prone subcomponent on my M-P is the meter, but if it failed tomorrow, so what? I still have meters and I still remember the "sunny 16 rule of thumb". And I still have lots of unopened yellow boxes and a handy custom lab to do my developing and scanning. Life goes on.

[bdolzani]

On 12/21/2021 at 12:53 PM, pebbles said:

I always find with my CL that I feel compelled to download the images as soon as i get home. But with my film Leicas i am relaxed. I can leave the images  in the camera until all 36 have been exposed and then enjoy seeing the results  There is no pressure, no rush, and I avoid urgent pictures. Much more satisfying and relaxing. Digital is urgency, film is restful. I have returned to film for my 'real' photos and am happy with the results. A bit more expensive but a real pleasure.

I'm finding that I once had your ease, but lately since shooting more (too much!) digital, I'm much more anxious/excited to finish my rolls and get to dev. For a few years now though that's been my outlook: I'm going out to shoot a roll(s) and I want to finish them before I get home so I can start developing and excitedly see them. 

I feel true to the medium, but my pace is influenced by digital thinking! 

Using the other day as an example, I can get frustrated when I'm out for a photo walk at a site and I put a second roll in, and then feel the photos dry up only part way into the second roll. Then I feel angst because I want to dev both rolls at once, and prefer to keep the rolls pertaining to whatever subject/place I had that day. So I hurriedly finished the roll, but I also probably made some shots that I wouldn't have, because I was forcing it a bit, and some of them are good...

brian 

PS I love these film threads. They are wholly inspiring.  

[bdolzani]

On 1/5/2022 at 1:58 PM, granite said:

IMO it's a mistake to talk about film as if it was an ivory-billed woodpecker: something that was extinct and maybe isn't anymore or maybe it is. Film never left photography but some photographers left film.

True. Yet with film prices rising like crazy, and ones being discontinued, it does feel like a rug is being pulled out from under us. Which isn't a great feeling...

Yet the whole world is rising in cost, and moving towards convenience-only, so we can be heroes who choose the opposite path. 

Shoot film while you still can. 

[Tom R]

It's likely that "film" as anything other than a "boutique" or "niche" choice is unlikely in the near future.

I am no business person, but I've been given to understand that until/unless the "big" consumers, i.e., the motion picture industry, the publications industry, and possibly others,, create a sustained demand for film then it's unlikely that the present situation will change much for the better. 

I use almost exclusively film and so I would really welcome a world where film was more "mainstream" but I'd like to see a lot of things that will, sadly, never happen--which is not to say that I could not be wrong ... .

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[bdolzani]

14 minutes ago, Tom R said:

It's likely that "film" as anything other than a "boutique" or "niche" choice is unlikely in the near future.

I am no business person, but I've been given to understand that until/unless the "big" consumers, i.e., the motion picture industry, the publications industry, and possibly others,, create a sustained demand for film then it's unlikely that the present situation will change much for the better. 

I use almost exclusively film and so I would really welcome a world where film was more "mainstream" but I'd like to see a lot of things that will, sadly, never happen--which is not to say that I could not be wrong ... .

Hi Tom, I agree, that while film will still be available for a long time to come, it can feel like something that's slowly, very slowly, drifting out to sea. And where it's only really appreciated via instagram hashtags and forums by other photographers. My wife as a good example of a normal person: a great photo is a great photo whether I or anyone shoots it on film or digital. It seems it's often only us who can FEEL the difference. Of course she can too when it's pointed out. 

May I ask how big your film supply is? Funny thing with me is I'll buy enough for a few months, then have to keep restocking, and each time I wonder 'how much do I want to get and will I finally stop soon?'

As a film die-hard, for as long as I can be, it's a constantly stressful/ponderous situation. I wonder about buying like 200 rolls at once to stop my indecision and commit for a longer run. 

However with a few digital cameras lying around me too the struggle is real. 

Brian

Edited March 31, 2022 by bdolzani