OhOh, future of CL?

[IkarusJohn]

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I commented some time ago that the TL2 has greater functionality than the CL - Louis questioned this before and I didn’t respond, I now realise.

Looking at the comparisons, the functionality isn’t that much different.  The TL2 has a few features I prefer - USB charging, internal memory, larger LCD, tiltable EVF, when fitted etc; whereas the CL has some features the TL2 doesn’t, like electronic shutter, interval mode etc, which don’t mean so much to me.

The main difference, it seemed to me at the time, was that the T (and its later versions) was futuristic, with Leica DNA.  It apparently didn’t capture people’s imagination.  The CL, to me, is really the TL2 dressed up like an M camera (no, I don’t think it is anything like the original Barnack - sorry, look at them side-by-side, and the Barnack is lower, wider and quite different to the CL) - both cameras basically have the same, just dressed differently.

Some pages on in this discussion, and I suspect Leica is taking a breather with the APS-C format cameras.  Nothing more than that.  We might see a new APS-C, but whether it is a more traditional, retro-styled camera looking like all the cameras we used in the 1960s or something more modern, who kows.  It just seems to me that the current line-up is neither here nor therre …

[Le Chef]

Developing a new camera and building an idea that has "stretch" to give it 5+ years of life before thinking about a version 2. 

The benefit of the T/TL/TL2 line is the use of an aluminum machined from a solid block to create the "chassis" for the electronics. That thinking can get you into lightening the camera while retaining strength. If you look at the car industry, and particularly Formula 1 there's much that can be learned that can be applied, particularly as we know weight is a negative to anyone carrying a camera and a few lenses. (And that's different from being robust which can be engineered in.) Whose to say that a CL2 could not be built around this form with the EVF built in?

The hardest part maybe the software/operating system and how to develop that in such a way that you quickly recoup your development costs, maybe by charging owners a subscription to make updates rather than a one-off charge when you purchase the camera.

The sensor is something that needs to be reviewed in terms of how much can you get out of APSC and is that meaningful enough to keep a significant group of photographers loyal and stop them moving to a FF sensor.

And finally energy consumption and heat dissipation - how do you provide enough energy to drive both more densely packed sensors and faster acting lenses while keeping the size and weight under control?

When you look at this list, and it's pure conjecture, does Leica have anywhere close to the resources it needs to do this without the help of a big partner like Panasonic or Sigma?

[IkarusJohn]

I always thought Leica would CNC more camera bodies after the T was introduced.

[cpclee]

The TL(2) is a lovely camera and differs from the CL more in presentation and user experience than functionality, so above I was not implying it to be a "non serious"  camera; "non traditionalist" might be a better choice of word.  

I do think the two cameras were differentiated intentionally to appeal to different segments while overlapping in the middle but to some extent that might have complicated the marketing message which is more my point.  

Edited November 23, 2021 by cpclee

[AdHox]

22 hours ago, cpclee said:

 i don’t mind this cohort of buyers as i think they make used gear cheaper for me. next time please point your friend to the noctilux for the ultimate chic

That’s how I picked up a couple of lenses - a local QC bought the full set of TL lenses to go with his brand new camera, then returned the lot to the shop a week later because a friend told him that he needed a ‘blad. 

[Michael Markey]

11 minutes ago, AdHox said:

That’s how I picked up a couple of lenses - a local QC bought the full set of TL lenses to go with his brand new camera, then returned the lot to the shop a week later because a friend told him that he needed a ‘blad. 

It`s great on an individual basis ...but I`m not sure it does a lot for brand image .

That may not be a concern for the company  though ,I appreciate that .

[Stuart Richardson]

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I honestly think that the CL/TL line is just not what the market wants these days. The APS market other than Fuji seems to be struggling, and Fuji competes with Leica for people who want a "photographer's" camera, with classically inspired styling and dials. Fuji is more up to date and much cheaper, so it is hard for Leica to keep up. Most people who are not already Leica fans would look at the differences in price, specs, and how fleshed out the eco-system is, and it would be hard to go for Leica unless you just HAD to have the Leica name. I think Leica hoped that CL buyers would move to either the Q system (if they wanted a compact high quality camera), the M system, or the SL system. In some ways, I think the SL2S is the CL2...a cheaper version of the flagship for people who are not as interested in resolution. I realize that the SL2 form factor is not what CL users want...they of course want a CL2, but it seems like that ship has sailed.

[Michael Markey]

1 hour ago, Stuart Richardson said:

I honestly think that the CL/TL line is just not what the market wants these days. The APS market other than Fuji seems to be struggling, and Fuji competes with Leica for people who want a "photographer's" camera, with classically inspired styling and dials. Fuji is more up to date and much cheaper, so it is hard for Leica to keep up. Most people who are not already Leica fans would look at the differences in price, specs, and how fleshed out the eco-system is, and it would be hard to go for Leica unless you just HAD to have the Leica name. I think Leica hoped that CL buyers would move to either the Q system (if they wanted a compact high quality camera), the M system, or the SL system. In some ways, I think the SL2S is the CL2...a cheaper version of the flagship for people who are not as interested in resolution. I realize that the SL2 form factor is not what CL users want...they of course want a CL2, but it seems like that ship has sailed.

The iPhone 13 Promax will be putting a big dent in that sector of the market .

Impressive bit of kit from what I`ve seen.

I fear that the ship has sailed as you suggest .

[dkCambridgeshire]

I had two TL2 cameras ... fine with TL lenses ... very unreliable with adapted long focus and tele Leica R lenses ... lost too many photo opportunities when live view suddenly failed on too many occasions when photographing birds 

Full refund eventually given ... did not migrate to the CL  for fear of same problem. 

Now use SL and S1R ... latter superb with my TL 11-23mm 

[cpclee]

12 minutes ago, dkCambridgeshire said:

I had two TL2 cameras ... fine with TL lenses ... very unreliable with adapted long focus and tele Leica R lenses ... lost too many photo opportunities when live view suddenly failed on too many occasions when photographing birds 

Full refund eventually given ... did not migrate to the CL  for fear of same problem. 

Now use SL and S1R ... latter superb with my TL 11-23mm 

I think the live view "failure" you are referring to is the automatic power-off.  When you use adapted lenses and are just turning the focusing and aperture rings manually, the CL doesn't know that you are working and will power off automatically after a while.  I ran into the same issue and took me a moment to realise what just happened.  

With native TL lenses anything you do, including manual focusing which is by wire, informs the camera that you are still working.  

[cpclee]

3 hours ago, Stuart Richardson said:

I honestly think that the CL/TL line is just not what the market wants these days. The APS market other than Fuji seems to be struggling, and Fuji competes with Leica for people who want a "photographer's" camera, with classically inspired styling and dials. Fuji is more up to date and much cheaper, so it is hard for Leica to keep up. Most people who are not already Leica fans would look at the differences in price, specs, and how fleshed out the eco-system is, and it would be hard to go for Leica unless you just HAD to have the Leica name. I think Leica hoped that CL buyers would move to either the Q system (if they wanted a compact high quality camera), the M system, or the SL system. In some ways, I think the SL2S is the CL2...a cheaper version of the flagship for people who are not as interested in resolution. I realize that the SL2 form factor is not what CL users want...they of course want a CL2, but it seems like that ship has sailed.

Nothing I've seen from Fujifilm APS-C comes close to the image quality of CL / TL but there is certainly no mistaking in the positioning that product line.  They even have an f1.0 lens.  

[lct]

Not sure what big FF cameras have to do with compact crop ones but there is indeed a market for APS cameras and lenses. Now for expensive ones, is there any market at all? Even an old Leica freak like truly yours is reluctant to pay Leica prices for software corrected lenses hardly superior to Sigma's or other affordable ones. Luxury APS cameras and lenses is a shrinking market i fear, if it ever existed.

[LocalHero1953]

10 hours ago, IkarusJohn said:

I commented some time ago that the TL2 has greater functionality than the CL - Louis questioned this before and I didn’t respond, I now realise.

Looking at the comparisons, the functionality isn’t that much different.  The TL2 has a few features I prefer - USB charging, internal memory, larger LCD, tiltable EVF, when fitted etc; whereas the CL has some features the TL2 doesn’t, like electronic shutter, interval mode etc, which don’t mean so much to me.

The main difference, it seemed to me at the time, was that the T (and its later versions) was futuristic, with Leica DNA.  It apparently didn’t capture people’s imagination.  The CL, to me, is really the TL2 dressed up like an M camera (no, I don’t think it is anything like the original Barnack - sorry, look at them side-by-side, and the Barnack is lower, wider and quite different to the CL) - both cameras basically have the same, just dressed differently.

Some pages on in this discussion, and I suspect Leica is taking a breather with the APS-C format cameras.  Nothing more than that.  We might see a new APS-C, but whether it is a more traditional, retro-styled camera looking like all the cameras we used in the 1960s or something more modern, who kows.  It just seems to me that the current line-up is neither here nor therre …

There is an elephant in the room: the CL has an EVF and the TL2 does not. That was always my main reason for selling the TL2 for the CL. That's quite a major functional difference in my book.

No, the CL does not look like the original Barnack, but it could takes the same place in the Leica line up: a small, light simple, versatile camera. It works in my eyes, but Leica did not push the analogy.

[LocalHero1953]

11 hours ago, cpclee said:

TL is the trendy camera that chould draw beginner and female shooters

Careful, your prejudices are showing.

This experienced and heterosexual male photographer loved the TL2.

[Michael Markey]

46 minutes ago, cpclee said:

Nothing I've seen from Fujifilm APS-C comes close to the image quality of CL / TL but there is certainly no mistaking in the positioning that product line.  They even have an f1.0 lens.  

I`m not sure what you mean by image quality but from what I`ve seen the colours produced by Fuji cameras are ,to my eyes ,superior to the Leica colour palette .

[LocalHero1953]

Leica has a bit of a problem whatever they intend to do. 

• Discontinue the APSC line without replacement? Say nothing, and hope no one notices so they can sell off their warehouse stock (bodies & lenses). End result: APSC system owners upset, because they won't get the improvements and modernisation they want.
• Replace the CL with a CL2 in the same lineage perhaps next year when there are more chips around? Say nothing, to stop sales of warehouse stock (just bodies) falling off a cliff six months early. End result: APSC owners may forgive the lack of info; those who sold their systems will not.
• Replace the CL with a full frame compact EVIL body perhaps next year when there are more chips around? Say nothing, to stop sales of warehouse stock (both bodies and lenses) falling off a cliff six months early. End result: APSC owners upset because their lenses have no real future in the new system, except as crop lenses.

 

[lct]

14 minutes ago, LocalHero1953 said:

Replace the CL with a full frame compact EVIL body perhaps next year when there are more chips around? Say nothing, to stop sales of warehouse stock (both bodies and lenses) falling off a cliff six months early. End result: APSC owners upset because their lenses have no real future in the new system, except as crop lenses.

TL lenses would have the same future as on the CL if the MP count of the FF body is high enough. We might even buy superb little APS lenses like the Sigma 18-50/2.8 for little money. But we could also use our FF lenses that would not be cropped anymore. Win-Win situation for me... provided the FF body is compact enough which is another story.

Edited November 23, 2021 by lct

[FrozenInTime]

'CL the perfect travel camera' https://gmpphoto.blogspot.com/2021/11/leica-cl-review-perfect-travel-camera.html

The 4th image from the bottom showing a SL with 24-90 side by side with the CL and 18-56 says it all - ( USP is the combination of small image circle lenses and body size )

[cpclee]

13 minutes ago, Michael Markey said:

I`m not sure what you mean by image quality but from what I`ve seen the colours produced by Fuji cameras are ,to my eyes ,superior to the Leica colour palette .

I meant sharpness, micro contrast, details, etc.  But that’s just based on samples i’ve seen online not actual shooting experience.

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Hallo,

Look here: Leica L-Mount

[cpclee]

26 minutes ago, LocalHero1953 said:

Careful, your prejudices are showing.

This experienced and heterosexual male photographer loved the TL2.

No offence meant of course—unsuccessful  wording on my part in trying to describe the TL as a camera capable of appealing to a broader audience.