My message to Leica AG in regards to CL!

[lct]

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Lack of clear communication may mean that Leica is not yet prepared to elaborate on the solution they propose to APS-C users. 

[Kim Dahl]

28 minutes ago, cpclee said:

Isn't it equally like that Stefan Daniel's words were misunderstood?  I for one find it quite odd for an experienced manager to reveal something like this to company outsiders.  It would have been more prudent / diplomatic to simply say he could not share.  Until they finalized a decision that is and then inform the world/dealers formally.

I gradually it is quite likely he has said it.  Maybe told he too much ? -  if the marketing department was to decide.  

As a consumer, I just think he is  honest to tell the truth - there are now so many arrows pointing to the fact that APSC as a camera is dead. 
Sometimes you can wish for it so much that you seize EVERYTHING to keep believing in it.  I think there are many of us who do that. 
 But I have lost hope and still very disappointed that Leica only makes one CL in a system camera - and then production stops.

[graphlex]

3 hours ago, jaapv said:

unfortunately Foveon sensors don’t play well with M lenses. 

True, but they would be excellent with the better TL lenses.

[Boojay]

I know this doesn't make anyone feel any better, but it is not only Leica that seem quiet on the aps-c front, many Canon users are unhappy about their eos-m line seeming abandoned and nothing announced mirrorless aps-c to run alongside R3/5/6.   Many photographers like the extra reach provided for telephoto, sports wildlife etc, that aps-c  provide, me included.   I think the size of the CL regardless of the sensor is what we users are most happy with, like many others I will continue to use mine but take a very large step away from L mount, I feel a cull approaching.

 

 

 

[Simone_DF]

1 hour ago, cpclee said:

Isn't it equally like that Stefan Daniel's words were misunderstood?  I for one find it quite odd for an experienced manager to reveal something like this to company outsiders.  It would have been more prudent / diplomatic to simply say he could not share.  Until they finalized a decision that is and then inform the world/dealers formally.

2 people out of 2 misunderstood? 

[Simone_DF]

4 hours ago, jaapv said:

The problem in the Leica world  is that such a camera would have SL lenses as native. Those are too large and expensive for a small entry level camera 

That's because they are F2 and APO lenses. Maybe Leica could come up with a line of 2.8 non-APO smaller lenses.

Or you could just buy one of the outstanding Sigmas, I love my 24 and 45mm and, especially for the 24mm, I have no intention of replacing it with a SL Cron. Quite the opposite, I'm waiting for a Sigma 50mm F2 to sell my 50 Cron. 

[jaapv]

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Quite true, but Leica is depending on Sigma and Panasonic for long L-mount lenses already. Now for a specific body? I had the impression Leica likes to build lenses themselves.

[Kim Dahl]

2 hours ago, Boojay said:

I know this doesn't make anyone feel any better, but it is not only Leica that seem quiet on the aps-c front, many Canon users are unhappy about their eos-m line seeming abandoned and nothing announced mirrorless aps-c to run alongside R3/5/6.   Many photographers like the extra reach provided for telephoto, sports wildlife etc, that aps-c  provide, me included.   I think the size of the CL regardless of the sensor is what we users are most happy with, like many others I will continue to use mine but take a very large step away from L mount, I feel a cull approaching.

 

 

 

 

Yes. That is the big problem.  It is not only a depreciation of the apsc but the whole idea of L-mount.  I keep mine - yet - but will also take is big step away from the L-mount. 
‘Will Leica stops the development of the L-mount when the last ones (24 and 21 summichron) are made?  And leaves the system to sigma and panasonic. We can not be sure.  Leica is by far the most expensive camera brand.  So one has to be careful.

[IkarusJohn]

Extrapolating a step away from APS-C to discontinuing the L mount is a leap.

The only people who know the sales of CL and TL2 cameras are at Leica.  I do not believe for a moment that they would stop development of a line of cameras that is selling well.  That would be very strange, unless each camera is made at a loss (which I also doubt).

What we do know is that more photos are taken with cellphones that anything else.  Leica has released its own, large sensor phone, but only in Japan - one of its strongest markets?  It is, at best, a toe in the water.

Leica was, 4 years ago(?), expressing commitment to APS-C, and they invested in developing the TL lenses and two cameras.  Leaving aside the understandable disappointment here (I also own a TL2), why do you think Leica is now saying that it has not made a decision about the future of APS-C?  They suffered considerable backlash over the R system decision …

Conversely, they have made a huge commitment to the SL.

If you’re making and selling expensive cameras and lenses, handmade in Germany, I suspect you want to ensure a point of difference in image quality, and equipment which no-one else makes.  I can understand why Leica came to the conclusion that APS-C doesn’t have a future.  They thought the T camera was going to be a hit.  It wasn’t, and the camera it should have been, the TL2, came too late.  The CL, an APS-C sensor wrapped in a faux M body, was an after-thought and was never developed further (compared to three T cameras - T/TL/TL2).   

Leica gear is expensive.  It’s never going to be cheap.  Right or wrong, I suspect Leica sees no future in anything smaller than an M camera, with anything less than full frame …

[ruskkyle]

3 hours ago, Boojay said:

I know this doesn't make anyone feel any better, but it is not only Leica that seem quiet on the aps-c front, many Canon users are unhappy about their eos-m line seeming abandoned and nothing announced mirrorless aps-c to run alongside R3/5/6. 

The problem for Canon is that they have backed themselves into a corner with the APS-C-only EOS-M mount. The RF mount is so much more versatile and they have in fact already begun making crop sensor cameras with RF mount in the form of the brilliant (super35) C70, which I own. The writing’s on the wall for EOS-M.

But Leica don’t have that excuse, do they?

[Kim Dahl]

Leica has (maybe) made a decision as you say.  APSC is out now there are only M and FF left. I think you'm right.

[jaapv]

42 minutes ago, IkarusJohn said:

wrapped in a faux M body

Errr... Barnack-LTM body.

[IkarusJohn]

4 minutes ago, jaapv said:

Errr... Barnack-LTM body.

Of course, that makes all the difference.  Why is it one, and not the other?

[nicci78]

The real issue of the CL, is that it too good against other Leica bodies. It cannibalized other more expensive full frame cameras.

It can compete favorably against M typ 240, SL typ 601 and Q typ 116. Even M10 or Q2 are not necessarily better.

What an embarrassment.... 

I am still undecided between which is best between my Q2 and my CL. I am using them both equally. And I often have to check EXIF to know which is which. 

CL made me sell my M10. Suddenly it became redundant. 

 

I do not care for any SL/SL2. They are way too big. Leica lend me an SL2-S for four days and then an SL2 for a week end. After that I was absolutely convinced that I will never buy any SL cameras. Never. It is not for me.

 

So if Leica stopped the CL line up, it will be the end of my story with the German brand. I already said to my Leica Store that my next purchase will be a CL2 and nothing else. 

CL was one of their very best camera ever. It may prove too good for the inner competition at Wetzlar. But killing it will not save the other. 

 

Leica should follow Steve Jobs mantra : we should cannibalized ourselves before anybody else do it. That's why iPad team wants to outdo the Mac and vice versa. And that iPhone has to be better than the iPad and the contrary too. Etc... Let people choose and make the best possible product. 

Brand new MacBook Pro 2021 offer same functionalities and power between 14" and 16". Choose your favorite size. 

That's how CL and SL line should articulate. Let us choose our size. 

 

Edited November 5, 2021 by nicci78

[IkarusJohn]

I suppose Leica could foresee this reaction - they do read this forum, right?

Yet, they made the decision (apparently).  I doubt they will abandon a system which is profitable.  So, they either have come to a calculated decision that the loss of you, Jaap and others here is a risk they will accept, or there is something else coming which might meet your needs; then again, they might assume you will throw your toys out of your cot, try another system, and come back …

[nicci78]

Don't assume that anybody will come back. 

Each time I left a brand, it is for good. 

 

[Michael Markey]

1 minute ago, IkarusJohn said:

I suppose Leica could foresee this reaction - they do read this forum, right?

Yet, they made the decision (apparently).  I doubt they will abandon a system which is profitable.  So, they either have come to a calculated decision that the loss of you, Jaap and others here is a risk they will accept, or there is something else coming which might meet your needs; then again, they might assume you will throw your toys out of your cot, try another system, and come back …

They would if the reason that it was profitable was people were abandoning the flagship M like Nicci .

I`m coming `round to the idea that may be the reason and I`m only thinking about within the Leica demographic .

People selling their M`s and using the CL .

It was the camera that stopped me using my M bodies although I haven`t sold them .

Outside of that it may well not be profitable .... its not an either or situation but a double whammy for the company possibly.

[Kim Dahl]

20 minutes ago, nicci78 said:

The real issue of the CL, is that it too good against other Leica bodies. It cannibalized other more expensive full frame cameras.

It can compete favorably against M typ 240, SL typ 601 and Q typ 116. Even M10 or Q2 are not necessarily better.

What an embarrassment.... 

I am still undecided between which is best between my Q2 and my CL. I am using them both equally. And I often have to check EXIF to know which is which. 

CL made me sell my M10. Suddenly it became redundant. 

 

I do not care for any SL/SL2. They are way too big. Leica lend me an SL2-S for four days and then an SL2 for a week end. After that I was absolutely convinced that I will never buy any SL cameras. Never. It is not for me.

 

So if Leica stopped the CL line up, it will be the end of my story with the German brand. I already said to my Leica Store that my next purchase will be a CL2 and nothing else. 

CL was one of their very best camera ever. It may prove too good for the inner competition at Wetzlar. But killing it will not save the other. 

 

Leica should follow Steve Jobs mantra : we should cannibalized ourselves before anybody else do it. That's why iPad team wants to outdo the Mac and vice versa. And that iPhone has to be better than the iPad and the contrary too. Etc... Let people choose and make the best possible product. 

Brand new MacBook Pro 2021 offer same functionalities and power between 14" and 16". Choose your favorite size. 

That's how CL and SL line should articulate. Let us choose our size. 

 

I think the same.  SL is like a completely different camera. Too big. And when I do not think I want to buy large zoom - both I pay too much and for something I do not need.  
Should I leave M?  I do not think.  But it can stop more purchases.  And in the long run, M does not make sense unless there is a small (CL) camera with electronic viewfinder. 
 

[jaapv]

The M10 

38 minutes ago, IkarusJohn said:

I suppose Leica could foresee this reaction - they do read this forum, right?

Yet, they made the decision (apparently).  I doubt they will abandon a system which is profitable.  So, they either have come to a calculated decision that the loss of you, Jaap and others here is a risk they will accept, or there is something else coming which might meet your needs; then again, they might assume you will throw your toys out of your cot, try another system, and come back …

At any rate I am not throwing. toys out of cots, I rarely sell my gear  

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Hallo,

Look here: Leica L-Mount

[Herr Barnack]

Quote

... People selling their M`s and using the CL...

I think that says more about the level of commitment to photography of those Leica users than it does about the M system. 

That is not meant as a slam, it means simply that the CL meets their photographic wants/needs; the CL is more than adequate for e-sharing of images.  The M system would likely be a better fit for those who want to create large size fine prints.

 

Edited November 5, 2021 by Herr Barnack