Decision help: should I sell my 28 Elmarit?

[lct]

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I own both Leica 28/2 v2 and 28/2.8 asph v1. The later is a bit more contrasty but not by much. It is significantly smaller though so i tend to use it preferably in good light. I mean on FF bodies as the 28/2.8 is my favorite on digital CL because of its small size. Both sharp lenses anyway.

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[EddieJ]

12 hours ago, jrh68uk said:

Hello,

I'm fortunate enough to be in the position that I now have two 28mm M lenses: the tiny Elmarit-M Asph. that I've had for a few years (actually my first Leica lens) and now a 2nd generation Summicron-M Asph. (used) - the unusual point being that I didn't have to sell the Elmarit to in order to get the Summicron. The intention was always to sell it, though, as long as I was satisfied enough with the Summicron once I'd tried it out, in order to replace some of the Summicron cost.

Even though the Summicron was used, it has left a financial hole which, if I don't sell anything, I can manage. My family won't starve and everything will be OK, but I feel I ought to carry out my plan because the Summicron is everything I'd hoped it would be. Trouble is, something is stopping me from doing that right now.

I know this decision is personal and very specific to me but I'm concerned I might regret selling the Elmarit. I really like it, but the Summicron should replace it in every sense except size. Shouldn't it? No-one can decide for me but I'm having doubts either way. Does anyone have both Elmarit and Summicron 28s (any version)? Has anyone bought the Summicron, sold the Elmarit and regretted it? Should I just grit my teeth and do it? First world problem, I know, but help!

Ask yourself the following:

What film speeds (ISO) are your amoured with and/or to?

Do you need the f2 aperture?

What aperture range do you shoot at?

Is weight/size an issue?

 

You know the what, why and when of the Elmarit.

Put the Summicron through its paces - shoot a roll typically around what you would normally shoot. 

 

Hope this helps.

 

 

 

[Gobert]

9 hours ago, M10 for me said:

I feel that I am the Elmarit type then. So my decision is not made yet. I look at all the published photographs in the respective thread here in the forum and I have major difficulties to make out what it means "classic", "vintage" etc. That part I will have to learn. By no means i would like to buy a Summaron to find out that it is not "sharp". But up to today all the images that I studied seem to be "sharp" 😏

I want maybe to add that it seems that I have some missing gene: As I have two 50mm; the Summilux in silver and the light Summarit that I love because of size and weight. But I can not make out differences between Lux and Summarit. Here I have to admit that I never "tested" seriously. I just look at my photographs and like or dislike them. Hm . . .

Summilux will give you more advantages when talking about DOF and low light, although the latter is of less importance with nowadays sensors. The price you pay is its size. Personally, I prefer the more smooth rendering of the Lux compared with the Elmarit.

[Gobert]

7 hours ago, a.noctilux said:

Talking about sharpness with 28 Summaron-M is 'falling a side'.

In my use, I never complain about the sharpness thing in results from Summaron-M 28mm.

In dim situation, the blur is mainly from moving subject (or myself, slow speed), but for me this lens is sharp enough from f/5.6 to f/22.

I agree with you. In my view sharpness of a lens doesn’t say much about the quality of a lens. It is a characteristic of a lens.

[M11 for me]

vor 23 Minuten schrieb Gobert:

I agree with you. In my view sharpness of a lens doesn’t say much about the quality of a lens. It is a characteristic of a lens.

Very interesting point. But here my understanding comes a bit short. What is then the difference between a high quality lens and a low cost lens (e.g. Artisan7). I hope that an expensive lens is of perfect built quality plus of very good optical quality as well (besides other criteria it should render "sharp" images). Then we know that that optical quality has been increased significantly in the last few years (see Canon, Sony, Nikon with lenses that increased significantly in size, weight and price) in order to be good enough for the recent high Megapixel sensors. With my M10 I am still at 24MP though. And the Q2 has a fix lens that must be built to match the sensor. The results are gorgious anyway.

Edited September 17, 2021 by M10 for me

[MarkP]

I have both of these lenses (and some other 28s). Apart from the obvious differences in maximum f-stop, size and weight, there is much debate as to whether they render differently. I think they do and although the Summicron-M is by far my favourite of the two, the Elmarit-M still gets a fair amount of use.

Keep both lenses for the moment, do some comparisons, see which one you prefer and whether the other lens then gets any use. Then make the decision. 

Regards,
Mark

[luigi bertolotti]

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I'd sell the Elmarit ; if the Summicron is definitely yours, and you aren't a collector, no reason to have two modern similar lenses : the question of size/weight is not so significative imho... you have anyway a M body : things could be different if you have plans, for instance, to get a CL : handling CL+Elmarit asph is really different from M+Summicron (apart of course that is a different taking for sensor format)

 

[farnz]

2 hours ago, M10 for me said:

Very interesting point. But here my understanding comes a bit short. What is then the difference between a high quality lens and a low cost lens (e.g. Artisan7). I hope that an expensive lens is of perfect built quality plus of very good optical quality as well (besides other criteria it should render "sharp" images). Then we know that that optical quality has been increased significantly in the last few years (see Canon, Sony, Nikon with lenses that increased significantly in size, weight and price) in order to be good enough for the recent high Megapixel sensors. With my M10 I am still at 24MP though. And the Q2 has a fix lens that must be built to match the sensor. The results are gorgious anyway.

I won't start a debate about the (perceived) differences between a high quality lens and a low cost lens - there are plenty of those smouldering in other threads here - and it's a highly subjective topic that are littered with, and distracted by, buyer's confirmation/justification.

You've mentioned the imaginary concept "sharp", which is also subjective, and should be referenced to a combination of contrast and resolution in order to have any meaning, measurability, or comparability.  It's a term I see often in photographic discussions but it doesn't mean much and is frequently used as a crutch in the 'my lens is better than your lens' discussions.  High resolution and low contrast will look different from low resolution and high contrast but both could be called "sharp".  To see an edge or line clearly requires resolution, ie the tiny 'steps' in the film or sensor where the smaller the step the higher the resolution, and contrast, ie the lightest and darkest tones available in the film or sensor.  Low resolution, ie a low number of line pairs per millimetre combined with high contrast, ie 0 to 255 (pure black to pure white) will be interpreted as sharp to some people and vice versa.

There's a lot of discussion around lenses not being good enough for modern sensors, which I think is nonsense.  A digital sensor is inherently a 'discrete' device, ie divided into separate pixels (or sensels to satisfy some) of a particular size and this size determines the maximum resolution - the pixel is the smallest unit in the sensor (there can be no half-pixels or quarter-pixels etc).  On the other hand the lens is inherently an analogue device and light is an analogue quantity and is therefore a continuous thing, ie it is not divided into discrete packets, where the individual wavelengths are far smaller than the smallest pixel.  We measure a lens's performance in line pairs per millimetre to quantify it so that we can measure and compare performance on a common basis but in reality the light directed onto a sensor by a lens is a continuous thing so a digital sensor with discrete pixels cannot out-resolve it in my view.  The effect of a lens might be to distort the light, eg aberrations, or to attenuate some of the light, eg transmissibility but it will deliver the light it gathers.

Pete.

 

[a.noctilux]

3 hours ago, M10 for me said:

Very interesting point. But here my understanding comes a bit short. What is then the difference between a high quality lens and a low cost lens (e.g. Artisan7). I hope that an expensive lens is of perfect built quality plus of very good optical quality as well (besides other criteria it should render "sharp" images). Then we know that that optical quality has been increased significantly in the last few years (see Canon, Sony, Nikon with lenses that increased significantly in size, weight and price) in order to be good enough for the recent high Megapixel sensors. With my M10 I am still at 24MP though. And the Q2 has a fix lens that must be built to match the sensor. The results are gorgious anyway.

Concerning the Summaron 28mm,

don't forget that this M lens is a new edition of old formula of 1955 LTM lens, same optical.

I don't know if those glasses in the lens are of same characteristics, but the good thing as user, I regret not having the old LTM, but used happily as loan from a friend.

As user again, this re-edition of the old formula is very nicely done, without putting in too much new characters.

 

I understand that if we would use this lens as only 28mm lens, it would be hard (but why not ?), however having this slow lens along other faster lens can be good idea.

[jrh68uk]

I'm so glad I started this topic. Once again I'd like to thank everyone for their input - from either end of the keep/sell spectrum and also some in between! All of it very useful.

I still haven't quite decided, of course, but I do think now that it boils down to whether I end up feeling I want to take out the Elmarit to get the "28 Elmarit look", or the Summicron. I know, up until now, I have taken out the Elmarit to have its distinctive rendering (focal length aside) and whether or not I end up feeling that the Summicron from 2.8 down is pretty much the same, then I think that's the decision made. I'll stop putting pressure on myself to decide right now though.

Cheers everyone.

[Tailwagger]

 

12 hours ago, jrh68uk said:

I'm so glad I started this topic. Once again I'd like to thank everyone for their input - from either end of the keep/sell spectrum and also some in between! All of it very useful.

I still haven't quite decided, of course, but I do think now that it boils down to whether I end up feeling I want to take out the Elmarit to get the "28 Elmarit look", or the Summicron. I know, up until now, I have taken out the Elmarit to have its distinctive rendering (focal length aside) and whether or not I end up feeling that the Summicron from 2.8 down is pretty much the same, then I think that's the decision made. I'll stop putting pressure on myself to decide right now though.

Cheers everyone.

A little late to the party, but I'll offer a slightly different perspective. In my time with Leica I have only ever sold one lens, the 50mm 'cron V5 for a 50mm 'lux BC.  Why? I simply didn't bond with the way 'cron drew. The 'lux, OTOH, will have a place of honor in my final resting place.   Like you, I have duplicates at nearly all focal lengths.  At 28mm, I own the v3 Elmarit and the 'lux.  I honestly could see buying the latest Elmarit someday both for its diminutive size as well as it ruthlessness,  qualities that one can't ascribe to the two 28s I currently possess. This, IMO, is both the joy, power and to a degree, frustration of owning an M.  It has the most complete set of paint brushes ever compiled.  But even if one owned them all, there remains the little matter of having the correct on on hand at the proper moment. 

If you have bonded with the 28 Elmarit, and it sounds as though you have, barring financial difficulty, my advice is keep it. Even if it sits on the shelf for a couple of years, there will come a moment when you'll find yourself in love with it again.  There really is no shame in being unable to decide which of the two siblings is the more beautiful child.

[Danner]

The diminutive size and weight of the Elmarit is a big plus.

[logan2z]

2 hours ago, Danner said:

The diminutive size and weight of the Elmarit is a big plus.

Yes, and I would definitely not use the term 'ruthless' when talking about its rendering. 

I'm not sure why the lens seems to have a reputation for harshness on this forum, but I'm shooting with it exclusively on film so maybe the combination of the Elmarit and digital sensors is not a good one.

[jrh68uk]

3 hours ago, logan2z said:

maybe the combination of the Elmarit and digital sensors is not a good one.

It absolutely is, though. At least with my M240 (and M9 and M8 before that, which I no longer own... how I miss them...).