Do these lenses shine in B&W, Colour, or both ?

[grahamc]

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Hey everyone 

Having been really pleased (unsurprisingly) with performance of 35mm Summilux v2 (Pre-ASPH) on black & white film, I thought I'd ask for your recommendations regarding where the following lenses perform best / are best suited to ... B&W or Colour shooting, or both.  

Reality is I’ll use them all for both but just thinking about how to set up my film cameras since I think I’ll always have a b&w roll in one and colour in the other. 

35mm Summilux v2 (Pre-ASPH):  B&W 
35mm Summicron v4: Colour 

50mm Summilux v2 E46 (Pre-ASPH): B&W (?)
50mm Summicron v3: Colour (?)

Lens yet to buy : 50mm Summicron v4 or 5 .... Great on both I assume 

Thanks ! 
 

Edited September 1, 2021 by grahamc

[grahamc]

Probably the better question is how would you allocate these  

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[adan]

Except for cases of gross chromatic aberrations, the concept of "lenses for color" or "lenses for B&W" is alien to me.

I have never had a lens that was not equally effective at handling both. And I have used all the lenses on your list at one point or another.

The idea presupposes that "B&W pictures" are supposed to look exactly one way, and "color pictures" are supposed to look - otherwise.

"Color pictures are what you get if you put color film in the camera." Leica photographer Danny Lyon, quoting one of his photo mentors.

Present company excepted (of course), I consider it an affectation by people desperate to make themselves "stand out" and "important" through their gear, rather than through their eye, mind, and photo skills. Or perhaps looking for an excuse for GAS.

It is the case that I prefer 1980s "Mandler" lenses in part because of their more cyan color than more modern Leica lenses - when I shoot color. But I like them for a host of other reasons that make them identically excellent lenses for B&W.

Cases in point (both M9):

35 Summilux-M v.2 vvv

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35mm Summicron v.4 vvv

Edited September 1, 2021 by adan

[evikne]

I have the 35 Summilux v2 and the 50 Summilux E46 (some call it v2, some v3), and have owned the 35 Summicron v4. I haven't experienced any particular difference in the colors between the two 35mm lenses and use the Summilux about equally for both colors and B&W. If I was forced to choose only one, the Summicron was maybe tiny bit better, but all in all I prefer the Summilux.

I also use my 50mm Summilux E46 for both, but especially the widest apertures shows some pastel colors. I am not always flattered by these and often end up converting to B&W. And in the cases (that I've told about in other threads) where the pictures are spoiled by flare, I camouflage with a high contrast B&W profile.

[grahamc]

Thanks @adan,  Great points and great photos . 

I did think after I posted that this may be a stupid (for want of a better word) question, or at least phrased the wrong way.  Because of course they are all great on B&W or Colour.  

It led me to consider why I was asking it .  The main reasons are that I currently have 2 cameras and soon-to-be 4 lenses, conveniently for this question 2x 35mm and 2x 50mm .  

They're all fairly recent purchases and until then I 'only' owned a 40mm Rokkor and CLE, which was my only point of reference prior to buying Leica lenses 

When I saw my results of the Summilux 35mm v2 on B&W film, I really loved them in comparison to the Rokkor 40mm (that I used to shoot all my film on).   The 35mm Lux being less contrasty of course and for me personally solved some of the issues I was having with the Rokkor (images had a little too much contrast for my tastes on B&W, but really nice and vibrant on colour).  I felt that this experience gave me an understanding of why some people favour particular lenses in their collection when they shoot B&W, and others when they shoot colour.

But I certainly agree with your points - they are all obviously very capable in both and just curious how others 'may' subjectively allocate these, especially if they were to carry 2 cameras or similar reason for having to split them up.  No doubt highly subjective question  

[grahamc]

23 minutes ago, evikne said:

I have the 35 Summilux v2 and the 50 Summilux E46 (some call it v2, some v3), and have owned the 35 Summicron v4. I haven't experienced any particular difference in the colors between the two 35mm lenses and use the Summilux about equally for both colors and B&W. If I was forced to choose only one, the Summicron was maybe tiny bit better, but all in all I prefer the Summilux.

I also use my 50mm Summilux E46 for both, but especially the widest apertures shows some pastel colors. I am not always flattered by these and often end up converting to B&W. And in the cases (that I've told about in other threads) where the pictures are spoiled by flare, I camouflage with a high contrast B&W profile.

Thanks @evikne, interesting feedback .   The E46 is the one from the set I've mentioned that I don't yet own, but will likely be my next purchase at some point. for now,  I love the 50:2 v3 so will swap it across both cameras as my 50mm.

I think the results I've seen from the Summilux v2 will mean it will always be very tempting to put it always on the B&W, but perhaps it's just an amazing lens that I'll love equally on colour.  

It's a circular question really but I did also read somewhere on here one of our members - perhaps @lct - owning both the 35mm 35;1.4 v2 and 35:2 v4 and using the Lux for B&W and the Cron for Colour. Personally I thought this was an excellent justification for me to keep both of them and assign them to a body each (mainly) as I was previously thinking of letting the Cron v4 go

Which really links back nicely to @adan's point about GAS! 

reality is they'll all get used for both mediums, as will the bodies

Edited September 1, 2021 by grahamc

[adan]

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Once upon a time, when color meant color slides, (Kodachrome, e.g.) and B&W was TX negatives, there may have been an argument for lower-contrast lenses on the higher-contrast slide films, and higher-contrast lenses to carve an image into neg films with more latitude.

Just as there was also a time when - supposedly - B&W was for RFs and color was for SLRs. I went through that phase myself (RF for content, SLR for color "graphics").

But once Ernst Haas, Costa Manos and Susan Meiselas (Nicaragua) published color from Leica RFs, that rather put a hole in that boat.

https://ernst-haas.com/color-new-york/

https://www.magnumphotos.com/newsroom/susan-meiselas-nicaragua/

Even Nat. Geo. photographers (some with Magnum connections) began shooting color stories on K'chrome or Velvia with their Ms from about 1990 (Alex Webb, Stuart Franklin).

https://www.magnumphotos.com/arts-culture/alex-webb-hot-light-half-made-worlds/

[grahamc]

Thanks for the insights @adan

Look forward to checking out the work in these links also 

[Danner]

IME, ...

The v4 35mm 'Cron is a stand-out lens for B&W, it doesn't disappoint.

The original 35mm 'Cron ASPH was (sold years ago) a stand-out lens for E6 (Velvia & Provia) when projected.  Fine detail resolved with rich saturation.

I've alway felt the v5 50mm 'Cron is good at everything.  I just acquired a pristine v3 50mm 'Cron, and will be testing it for B&W this week, and comparing it to the V5.

I'm trying to figure out what the v2 50mm Summilux is best at, but haven't figured that out just yet...

[Jeff S]

Some photographers are more effective using color; others excel in black and white. Only rarely does one find someone (Ernst Haas) who routinely excels at both. Ansel’s color work was unremarkable. Lens choice won’t change that fundamental dynamic. Besides, there isn’t a singular image rendering that results from use of a particular lens; the photographer (and printer) have many choices.

Jeff

[spydrxx]

I thought about your question and the responses so far, which pretty much match my experience over the years. For me, at least, since the demise of Kodachrome, now shooting mostly B&W, I prefer a look which is less contrasty, and consequently rarely use any of my few remaining ASPH lenses. Most of my work is along the lines of nature, portraiture and some landscape...so a touch of vignetting is ok by me. I think you would be well served in both color and B&W by any of the lenses you mentioned. Carrying two bodies, one color and one B&W occurred to me at one time, but I found converting color to B&W easy, and honestly liked the sense of slight grain and the "starkness" of B&W in my works. Having had too many occurrences of GAS in the past has been a great learning experience in narrowing down the lenses to those which handle best for me and consistently produce the look I want. I no longer agonize over "which lens/s should I take/use" most of the time. Rather it is which focal length will best do the job facing me. Good luck in your quest, and mostly have fun.

[grahamc]

8 hours ago, Danner said:

IME, ...

The v4 35mm 'Cron is a stand-out lens for B&W, it doesn't disappoint.

The original 35mm 'Cron ASPH was (sold years ago) a stand-out lens for E6 (Velvia & Provia) when projected.  Fine detail resolved with rich saturation.

I've alway felt the v5 50mm 'Cron is good at everything.  I just acquired a pristine v3 50mm 'Cron, and will be testing it for B&W this week, and comparing it to the V5.

I'm trying to figure out what the v2 50mm Summilux is best at, but haven't figured that out just yet...

Thanks @Danner 

I’d be interested to know your thoughts on the v3 cron when you have had chance to do that.  I bought it with the intention of the v2 50 Lux joining it at some point (hence why the latter is in the list). But since I love the v3, I don’t think that Lux purchase will happen for a while now. I don’t have any experience of other Leica 50s but really like it’s character, and find it a nice match for the 35s I have 

[grahamc]

6 hours ago, spydrxx said:

I thought about your question and the responses so far, which pretty much match my experience over the years. For me, at least, since the demise of Kodachrome, now shooting mostly B&W, I prefer a look which is less contrasty, and consequently rarely use any of my few remaining ASPH lenses. Most of my work is along the lines of nature, portraiture and some landscape...so a touch of vignetting is ok by me. I think you would be well served in both color and B&W by any of the lenses you mentioned. Carrying two bodies, one color and one B&W occurred to me at one time, but I found converting color to B&W easy, and honestly liked the sense of slight grain and the "starkness" of B&W in my works. Having had too many occurrences of GAS in the past has been a great learning experience in narrowing down the lenses to those which handle best for me and consistently produce the look I want. I no longer agonize over "which lens/s should I take/use" most of the time. Rather it is which focal length will best do the job facing me. Good luck in your quest, and mostly have fun.

Thanks @spydrxx 

Yes perhaps in the example I mentioned my experience on b&w (of 35:1.5 v2 versus Rokkor) it’s simply a case that I enjoy lower contrast lenses on b&w  

No doubt I will develop some preferences as I go along, or maybe just for particular lenses across both formats 

Appreciate you giving this some thought 

 

[grahamc]

8 hours ago, Danner said:

 

I'm trying to figure out what the v2 50mm Summilux is best at, but haven't figured that out just yet...

Do you like it then  ? I’m unsure whether you mean it’s great on both or whether you find it a bit underwhelming.  

[Capuccino-Muffin]

You are only, really, digging a huge rabbit hole if you go 50 for color and 35 for bw (or vice versa).

If you are serious about shooting color and BW in parallel, I can only recomend two same lens. In your case, two summilux 35 preasph.

[grahamc]

25 minutes ago, Capuccino-Muffin said:

You are only, really, digging a huge rabbit hole if you go 50 for color and 35 for bw (or vice versa).

If you are serious about shooting color and BW in parallel, I can only recomend two same lens. In your case, two summilux 35 preasph.

Thanks @Capuccino-Muffin  

the thought had crossed my mind. It’s a spectacular lens IMO and as mentioned elsewhere I far prefer it to the v4 cron stopped down also. 
early days but that’s an option later if I really see the need 

[lct]

16 hours ago, grahamc said:

It's a circular question really but I did also read somewhere on here one of our members - perhaps @lct - owning both the 35mm 35;1.4 v2 and 35:2 v4 and using the Lux for B&W and the Cron for Colour.

I'm not the best to answer your question as i shoot mostly color and when i shoot B&W i can do it with any lens. Also the last time i shot film was 10+ years ago. Just my 2 cents about lenses you quoted anyway:
- 35/1.4 v2: B&W & color. Note that the Summilux v2 is a bit less contrasty than later lenses and this may translate into less color saturation. It is not a problem on digital if you shoot raw though. 
- 35/2 v4: B&W & color. Was a modern lens when i got mine in the eighties. Compared to current lenses it has a bit les acutance but it works fine on B&W & color anyway. 
- 50/1.4 E46: You mean v3 i guess as v2 is E43. B&W & color. Same comment as 35/2 v4.
- 50/2 v3: Nor sure. I only used this lens 30+ years ago on film but i shot a lot of Kodachromes then so i would be surprised if it doesn't work well on digital color.
- 50/2 v4: B&W & color. Same comment as 35/2 v4.
- 50/2 v5: B&W & color. Current lens.

[Ernstk]

I don't think that it's fair to say that the Summilux 35 pre is only good for black & white.

Here's a colour photo, shot straight into the sun.

Ernst

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[me111]

My 35mm Summilux v2 is my best lens in terms of color rendition, imo.

 

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Hallo,

Look here: Leica M

[grahamc]

34 minutes ago, Ernstk said:

I don't think that it's fair to say that the Summilux 35 pre is only good for black & white.

Here's a colour photo, shot straight into the sun.

Ernst

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Lovely ! Yes I’m certainly not suggesting, or expecting anyone else to suggest,  that any of these are only good for either.  
 

I feel like a more appropriate question may have just been to ask simply which of them have more / less contrast, and from there could dial in to my own preferences   Which may even change over time or just on mood I want to capture

I’ll be using all of them for both b&w and colour film aswell as digital of course