Any S to Fuji GFX100s Comparisons?

[plasticman]

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26 minutes ago, frame-it said:

Ah yes, the typical snarky LUF comment.

I don't know what to say - I don't think of myself as a snobby Leica owner - I go out of my way to avoid them, and I definitely don't think having a more expensive camera in my hands makes me a better photographer. Quite often the opposite is the case. But you obviously have me pinned as one because I thought there really was nothing distinguishing these images from iPhone captures.

I'm not going to get into some stupid fight about this subject - it's really not worth it - but isn't it you that's being the camera snob here? You seem to be suggesting there's something special about the very pedestrian images in that Flickr group, just because they're taken with a 100megapixel sensor?

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[BernardC]

Unfortunately, the flickr page mostly has test shots. Maybe the food shots were taken for a client, but the rest of them are just people trying-out their new camera. We all do this, it's like musicians tuning and practicing scales. There's nothing wrong with that, but it's not satisfying for an audience.

I would like to see big prints; those are the Fuji's USP. Maybe I'll get a chance when things open-up in the next few months. It would be especially interesting to see a comparison with the S3. The megapixel difference isn't huge (depending on cropping), and I know S lenses have the ability to grab your attention from across a large room, and keep it all the way to nose-on-print distance.

 

[bags27]

It probably won't affect the buying decision of most folks here, though it heightens the question of comparable value. Leica is raising its prices in 2 weeks allegedly because of exchange rates, even though from what I can see the Euro-US Dollar exchange rate has been quite favorable to European companies. Is the Trump camera tariff still in effect? It has been suspended on wine for at least the next 4 months.

https://leicarumors.com/2021/03/15/not-an-april-fools-day-joke-leica-price-increase-coming-to-the-us-on-april-1-2021.aspx/

 

[ropo54]

 

1 hour ago, bags27 said:

It probably won't affect the buying decision of most folks here, though it heightens the question of comparable value. Leica is raising its prices in 2 weeks allegedly because of exchange rates, even though from what I can see the Euro-US Dollar exchange rate has been quite favorable to European companies. Is the Trump camera tariff still in effect? It has been suspended on wine for at least the next 4 months.

https://leicarumors.com/2021/03/15/not-an-april-fools-day-joke-leica-price-increase-coming-to-the-us-on-april-1-2021.aspx/

 

Even the Leica S lenses and S3!  

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Edited March 16, 2021 by ropo54

[ZHNL]

51 minutes ago, ropo54 said:

 

Even the Leica S lenses and S3!  

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They should. S glasses are the best:) Truely. 

 

FYI. With implemented PDAF in 100S, FUJI offer two additional manual focus aid features: DIGITAL SPLIT IMAGE and DIGITAL MICROPRISM

http://fujifilm-dsc.com/en-int/manual/gfx100s/taking_photo/manual-focus/

I tested them both and I found very interesting and can see myself use them for suitable subjects. These are way better than dim small physical split focus screen S offer. 

There are a few reasons you want prefer IBIS and EVF based camera: 

For lens like 180mm, it is not only give you sharp image handhold at wider application range, it also stabilize the viewfinder  for viewing and shooting, a big plus IMO. longer lens on OVF without OIS or IBIS make me dizzy  

Another benefit I can think of is CPL or ND filter handhold shooting for better viewing experience. S's OVF is the best of best but once you add CPL and light goes down, it is not as pleasing. 

Let's don't pretend that any camera can make you better photographer or make better images.  

and Let's don't pretend leica's pixel is better than Fuji's pixel or vise versa. I just want share useful information without bias. 

Edited March 16, 2021 by ZHNL

[ZHNL]

4 hours ago, plasticman said:

Not exactly sure what you mean.

But anyways I've been trying the electronic shutter on the X1D this morning, and aside from when I really tried to shake the camera around I haven't noticed anything weird yet - although I haven't tested anything super-challenging either. I photographed thin, straight vertical objects, and also people talking - which I expected to lead to some really weird mouth or face shapes - but actually they looked totally normal (or as normal as people can look when you photograph them talking) - no unexpected distortion or 'jello' effect, whatsoever.

Maybe the supposed jello effect will be more visible when I try to photograph the kids? Or maybe it's not as serious as people think - as in this thread on GetDPI

On that basis I ordered the Leica-M to X adapter from Novoflex - which is the one recommended by Ming Thein. Have a couple of their adapters for the Leica T and they are very solid, though not very elegant. 

You just haven't tried enough or run into problems yet. It has the slowest E shutter out of any cameras in this caliber at 1/4S. (same with GFX50s) However, this is whole sensor read out time,  the resolution is about 8272 x 6200. so each line is read out about 1/4/6200. Assume the subject head is take 600 pixel lines, you get about 1/40S motion equivalence without notice distortion depend on how picky you are or how fast your subject moving. 

The problem is not only slow scan, but the total delay in this mode include black frame is about 2S. No way you want use X1D this way. 

Just prove I had this camera and it can be used with E shutter. Here is one with Nikon 58mm f1.4G with Novoflex F to X adapter on x1D2. It is usable but not pleasing experience I have to say. 

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Edited March 16, 2021 by ZHNL

[Sarnian]

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3 hours ago, bags27 said:

It probably won't affect the buying decision of most folks here...

 

Not me as I never buy new lenses. All 3 of my second-hand Mint & boxed S lenses cost me a grand total of $8,855 compared to the current MSRP of $29,585 ($30,485 new MSRP).

[plasticman]

11 hours ago, ZHNL said:

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Beautiful photo of a beautiful kid! 

[helged]

15 hours ago, ZHNL said:

You just haven't tried enough or run into problems yet. It has the slowest E shutter out of any cameras in this caliber at 1/4S. (same with GFX50s) However, this is whole sensor read out time,  the resolution is about 8272 x 6200. so each line is read out about 1/4/6200. Assume the subject head is take 600 pixel lines, you get about 1/40S motion equivalence without notice distortion depend on how picky you are or how fast your subject moving. 

The problem is not only slow scan, but the total delay in this mode include black frame is about 2S. No way you want use X1D this way. 

Just prove I had this camera and it can be used with E shutter. Here is one with Nikon 58mm f1.4G with Novoflex F to X adapter on x1D2. It is usable but not pleasing experience I have to say. 

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Any info regarding the readout speed on GFX 100s? There are rumors about a 50s II that is interesting, hopefully with improved readout. 'Only' lacking an electronic S-to-GFX adapter before seceral mirrorless S-options are available... https://www.fujirumors.com/breaking-fujifilm-gfx50s-mkii-coming-2021-with-same-50-megapixel-sensor-of-gfx50s/

Edited March 17, 2021 by helged

[tom0511]

vor 15 Stunden schrieb Sarnian:

Not me as I never buy new lenses. All 3 of my second-hand Mint & boxed S lenses cost me a grand total of $8,855 compared to the current MSRP of $29,585 ($30,485 new MSRP).

I bought many lenses new, but at this time they were not available used. Later I added a used mint 30-90 for a really attractive price. I am with you, you can buy used Leica S gear for great prices, even if you calculate in a motor replacement. The only problem is the S3 body, which is still to new to find it for attractive prices.

 

[ZHNL]

8 hours ago, helged said:

Any info regarding the readout speed on GFX 100s? There are rumors about a 50s II that is interesting, hopefully with improved readout. 'Only' lacking an electronic S-to-GFX adapter before seceral mirrorless S-options are available... https://www.fujirumors.com/breaking-fujifilm-gfx50s-mkii-coming-2021-with-same-50-megapixel-sensor-of-gfx50s/

1/6s in 14 bit mode and 1/3s in 16 bit mode. You can easily test this yourself at home if you know your AC frequency. You can see information here: 

https://blog.kasson.com/gfx-100/how-fast-is-the-gfx-100-electronic-shutter/

IF you are interested in GFX, please do visit Kasson's blog. His blog is on technical side but I like it because of my profession. There are two part in my gear selection: technical and romantic side LOL The romantic side push me to Leica, technical side push me to FUJI or Nikon for that matter. 

However, unlike Hasselblad, because GFX do have mechanical shutter and EFCS, we don't need worry about E shutter read out speed most of time. On tripod or studio, use E shutter just make a lot sense for FUJI users. Fuji has good engineering that there is no penalty using E-shutter. (it makes sense in this case because they need chasing IQ in GFX) You get all the benefits of vibration free without dynamic range hit. Many manufactures don't disclosure on their datasheet that they drop bits or have high read noise during E shutter, or I should say they trade performance with speed. (for example: Canon R5 or early Sony A7rx and A9 in certain shooting condition)

 

Edited March 17, 2021 by ZHNL

[bags27]

1 hour ago, ZHNL said:

1/6s in 14 bit mode and 1/3s in 16 bit mode. You can easily test this yourself at home if you know your AC frequency. You can see information here: 

https://blog.kasson.com/gfx-100/how-fast-is-the-gfx-100-electronic-shutter/

IF you are interested in GFX, please do visit Kasson's blog. His blog is on technical side but I like it because of my profession. There are two part in my gear selection: technical and romantic side LOL The romantic side push me to Leica, technical side push me to FUJI or Nikon for that matter. 

However, unlike Hasselblad, because GFX do have mechanical shutter and EFCS, we don't need worry about E shutter read out speed most of time. On tripod or studio, use E shutter just make a lot sense for FUJI users. Fuji has good engineering that there is no penalty using E-shutter. (it makes sense in this case because they need chasing IQ in GFX) You get all the benefits of vibration free without dynamic range hit. Many manufactures don't disclosure on their datasheet that they drop bits or have high read noise during E shutter, or I should say they trade performance with speed. (for example: Canon R5 or early Sony A7rx and A9 in certain shooting condition)

 

+1

Jim Kasson's a prince of a guy. Email him with questions and he'll be only too glad to help.

[ZHNL]

BTW, I tested 180mm S on GFX100S with fotodiox adapter. Again, it reaches infinity. So, 100/120/180 are the three can reach infinity, rest of S can't. I haven't find time to see if I can use f11 for those can't to cover landscape usage. I feel 70 have chances but short one will be tough. 

Shooting 180 S on GFX will give you a total different feeling. I shoot it indoor light and can easily hold it at 1/15S, this really is a refreshing experience though I have to say it is still a little bit too big for my taste but at this focal, it is harder to find a small lens can cover bigger sensor. The performance is top notch though almost a twin to 120S, smooth and never on your face sharp, just beautiful. 

[Sarnian]

52 minutes ago, ZHNL said:

BTW, I tested 180mm S on GFX100S with fotodiox adapter. Again, it reaches infinity. So, 100/120/180 are the three can reach infinity, rest of S can't. 

That's good to know (for the future) as I just bought a Mint 180mm with a new auto focus motor for $2,213. 

[Jon Warwick]

1 hour ago, Sarnian said:

... as I just bought a Mint 180mm with a new auto focus motor for $2,213. 

That seems to be a remarkable price? Maybe I have the wrong impression, but the prices I read about for used S gear suggest it's very reasonable vs new, and very reasonable compared to other Leica products .... I'd certainly expect to pay more than $ 2.2k used for one of the better M or SL lenses.

Edited March 18, 2021 by Jon Warwick

[Sarnian]

24 minutes ago, Jon Warwick said:

That seems to be a remarkable price? 

I got it from UsedPhotoPro (i.e. RobertsCamera). I checked with Leica first and it had the new auto focus motor fitted in February 2018. If you order from them note that I used the "NEWBIE" discount code which gave me 5% off. The shipping would be free for U.S. customers but I'm international (U.K.).

Items Ordered

Items Ordered

Product Name	SKU	Price	Qty	Subtotal
Subtotal				USD $2,330.00
Shipping & Handling				USD $62.96
Discount (NEWBIE)				-USD $116.50
Grand Total				USD $2,276.46
Leica 11071 APO-Tele-Elmar-S 180mm f3.5 Lens 180/3.5	ULD-06-18035-3 4133774	USD $2,330.00	Ordered1	USD $2,330.00

[helged]

2 hours ago, ZHNL said:

BTW, I tested 180mm S on GFX100S with fotodiox adapter. Again, it reaches infinity. So, 100/120/180 are the three can reach infinity, rest of S can't. I haven't find time to see if I can use f11 for those can't to cover landscape usage. I feel 70 have chances but short one will be tough. 

Shooting 180 S on GFX will give you a total different feeling. I shoot it indoor light and can easily hold it at 1/15S, this really is a refreshing experience though I have to say it is still a little bit too big for my taste but at this focal, it is harder to find a small lens can cover bigger sensor. The performance is top notch though almost a twin to 120S, smooth and never on your face sharp, just beautiful. 

Handhold on S, S180 requires 1/250 sec, preferably shorter, shutter speeds (in my experience; others may have better technique). Compared to 1/15 s, we are talking about 4+ stops difference. Fuji claims 5 stops (or thereabout), which fits well with your experience. This is good as it greatly expands the usability of the S-lenses (except for the known problem of constant aperture and that wider lenses don't focus at infinity; the latter should be fixable by adjusting the thickness of the Fotodiox adapter, or that new adapter(s) will be made).

[tom0511]

very interesting. But this is a "stupid" non AF adapter, right? How do you set aparture? How did you focus (magnification?)

IBIS for the 180 is usefull for sure, even though if I use 180mm it is often for non-totally-still subjects where a short exp time makes sense anyways.

 

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[helged]

39 minutes ago, tom0511 said:

very interesting. But this is a "stupid" non AF adapter, right? How do you set aparture? How did you focus (magnification?)

IBIS for the 180 is usefull for sure, even though if I use 180mm it is often for non-totally-still subjects where a short exp time makes sense anyways.

 

@ZHNL is the correct person to answer since he has 100S, the Fotodiox adapter and S-lenses. But yes, the Fotodiox adapter is fully manual, implying that you can not change the aperture on the S-lens when mounted on the 100S (but the S-lens can be preset to any aperture on a S-body), and you have to focus by magnification etc (similarly to manual focus on SL2, I guess). Not elegant, but a useful option to have.

[ZHNL]

7 hours ago, helged said:

Handhold on S, S180 requires 1/250 sec, preferably shorter, shutter speeds (in my experience; others may have better technique). Compared to 1/15 s, we are talking about 4+ stops difference. Fuji claims 5 stops (or thereabout), which fits well with your experience. This is good as it greatly expands the usability of the S-lenses (except for the known problem of constant aperture and that wider lenses don't focus at infinity; the latter should be fixable by adjusting the thickness of the Fotodiox adapter, or that new adapter(s) will be made).

Yes, it requires at least 1/250S and in field I use 1/500 actually and still be able to see hand shake occasionally. So I have to make a few exposures to make sure get a fully usable one and I have a very stable hand I think:) That was the reason I on longer take it on hiking without tripod and later sold it.  

Fuji actually claim 6 stops IBIS, a remarkable achievement with such a big sensor. (SL2 has 5 stop).  I made a few exposure at 1/8S and all of them decent with half of them are fully sharp. The percentage goes up with shorter exposure time. If I could make sure it fully usable at 1/60S, it will be good enough for most of tasks. Keep in mind, 100S sensor can at least give you another three stop shooting at ISO800 to have fully usable images. Basically, this make the only barrier using this 180 is size and weight. 

Just tried 35S, f11 will not reach infinity. I wouldn't expect 24 will either.  TBH, Fotodiox sucks given this is so simple a task. Someone bring a good one with aperture control please.