LTM to M adapters

[a.noctilux]

Advertisement (gone after registration)

47 minutes ago, tranquilo67 said:

Ok. It's clear that I'm the only one that see a mess there.

Thank you to all of you for your time.

In these last decades as Leitz/Leica user, I've seen so many "messes" that I'm so happy I'm not alone and discover those Leitz/Leica messes...

same on everyday life in many domains.

I don't worry anymore.

"old Augustins" or Dominicains ?

seen here

Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here…

Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members!

Edited December 27, 2020 by a.noctilux

[Anbaric]

10 hours ago, tranquilo67 said:

- If you have a 21mm lens use the one that says 21-50 or the one that says 21-35 (both will behave completely different) or simply ignore that 21 mark and use any adapter. It really doesn't matter except if you have the M3 where the finder will be less crowded if you use a 50mm one (independent if it says 21, or 28 or just 50). And of course, ignore the wiki. None will provide you 21mm frames.

The '21-35' engraving tells us a little more about how Leitz thought these adapters should be used in the 50s. This is also qualified by camera model 'M2 21-35', 'M3 135' - i.e., they thought this was the appropriate adapter for lenses wider than the available framelines on the M2. Taken together with the engraving on the 50 adapter, the logic in the M3/M2 era seems to have been: "When using a lens wider than the viewfinder supports, show me a single frameline, the widest available on the camera".

This leads me to wonder what they did with the original Super Angulon 21mm f/4. This was a Leitz-badged Schneider LTM lens with a permanent factory-fitted M adapter. So which framelines does it bring up? The SA was launched in 1958, when most M cameras in circulation were M3s, but the M2 had already been launched. I'm guessing they went with the 'best' adapter for their flagship camera, which would be the 50. Can anyone confirm? How about later Super Angulons?

Edited December 27, 2020 by Anbaric

[Advertisement]

The Leica Q3 is available for pre-order at B&H Photo Video and Adorama

[a.noctilux]

Anbaric,

for Super-Angulon 4/21, see my post #15   

 "50"

" ...- my S-A 4/21 in M mount came with factory adapter which index 50 frames, so here also if we use aux 21 finder, we can use every adapter on every M "

Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here…

Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members!

Edited December 27, 2020 by a.noctilux

[willeica]

57 minutes ago, tranquilo67 said:

Ok. It's clear that I'm the only one that see a mess there.

Thank you to all of you for your time.

It just appears to be a mess now. Being able to contextualise the past is an important key to understanding the history of Leica. Things were done' in the moment' which might appear to be illogical today and this goes back to the beginning eg how can we explain the FISON with a square front that has to be readjusted every time the lens is refocussed to today's users ? Just look at the list of Leica remote cords that became redundant eg what later cord could be used with a 'dimpled mushroom' shutter button? Then there is the endless list of what filter fits what lens, with some lens versions needing screw in filters and others requiring bayonet or slip on filters. Just look at the large spreadsheets for filters that are in books like Laneys.  I see the adapters as being in that great tradition. Very few designers of such items would have been able to see into the future and figure out that more frame-line options might be added. Hence we often ask 'Why did they ever do that that?'.  I think it all adds to the charm and mystique of collecting old Leicas.

William

[a.noctilux]

I took time to understand the varieties on adapters, reading old catalogs.

If we have a look at this Leitz catalog of 1973, it helps (so in 1973 M Leica ) choosing the right adapter

 

Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here…

Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members!

1973 french Leitz catalog in pdf loadable from summilux.net ( warning 11.5 MB clic in link to download ! )

[Anbaric]

2 hours ago, a.noctilux said:

Anbaric,

for Super-Angulon 4/21, see my post #15   

 "50"

" ...- my S-A 4/21 in M mount came with factory adapter which index 50 frames, so here also if we use aux 21 finder, we can use every adapter on every M "

Sorry, missed that! The 50 makes perfect sense for the M3 by the logic of the time (such as it is). I wonder if it was the same for the later, faster version, which I assume is native M-mount? I believe current Leica 21mm lenses bring up the 28mm frameline, which makes sense for modern cameras.

1 hour ago, a.noctilux said:

I took time to understand the varieties on adapters, reading old catalogs.

If we have a look at this Leitz catalog of 1973, it helps (so in 1973 M Leica ) choosing the right adapter

Hmm, here I might agree with the original poster. That table makes sense for the M3, but contradicts the engraving on the 135 adapter ('M2 21-35', 'M3 135' ) which suggested it was the right one for wide lenses on the M2 (see post #22), though as you still only get one frameline, it matters less than with the M3. And presumably with the MD and MDa, it really doesn't matter which you use!

[luigi bertolotti]

Advertisement (gone after registration)

On 12/27/2020 at 12:19 PM, willeica said:

It just appears to be a mess now. Being able to contextualise the past is an important key to understanding the history of Leica. Things were done' in the moment' which might appear to be illogical today and this goes back to the beginning...

William

I agree... it's just a matter of time and context... it's like discussing about the matter of the "0,65 m" minimum focus of many goggled  lenses... which is "0,7 m"  in other goggled ones...    When they brilliantly designed the adapters, probably on had yet the idea that one day they would have redesigned the RF with a 28 frame... (and an M8 for which "50 isn't a 50" 😁)

Edited January 4, 2021 by luigi bertolotti

[oldwino]

Why won’t my cassette tape fit in my CD player? 

[hilm3]

On 1/8/2021 at 10:40 AM, oldwino said:

Why won’t my cassette tape fit in my CD player? 

It'll fit on a turntable, though. And also a CD.

[Quinttastic]

On 12/26/2020 at 1:45 PM, tranquilo67 said:

Merry Christmas,

I'm becoming a bit mad with the LTM->M adapters. I know that, theoretically they're something extremely simple converting the M39 to M mount and raising their respective frames. The last aspect is the rangefinder coupling, where the adapter does nothing: the screw mount lens cam keeps being coupled to the arm in the body.

In the 6 frames bodies, when a lens is mounted, the frames are displayed in couples:

• 28/90
• 35/135
• 50/75

Of course, there are simpler configurations in the early models or based on viewfinder magnification.

So, to me it seems clear that the only thing to worry about is to choose and adapter that will rise the right frame or set of frames. Well, in fact there is another factor to consider that is the infinity lock, specially in those lenses that have it very close to the mount, so they will need a cut in the adapter ring (like collapsible Elmar 50, Summaron/Elmar 35 and Hektor 28).

So I cannot understand the following:

1. Adapter IRZOO marked: "28-50". In my observation it raises 50/75 frames. It doesn't raise the 28mm frame. What means that 28? It's really misleading. Link to wiki: http://www.l-camera-forum.com/leica-wiki.en/index.php/File:IRZOO.jpg
2. In the Wiki, the information about IRZOO says "it indicates the proper framelines with 50mm lenses and 35 mm lenses" (and explicitly mentions Elmar and Summaron). In my observation once more, it raises the 50/75 frames (http://www.l-camera-forum.com/leica-wiki.en/index.php/IRZOO) and it doesn't raise the 35mm frame.
3. ISBOO: Marked "9cm". It raises the 90/28 set of frames but none of them show the "28" mark.
4.  In the 1409 page of the wiki (http://www.l-camera-forum.com/leica-wiki.en/index.php/1409%3F) it literally says: it indicates the proper framelines for 2.1cm f4!!!!!
5. There is an adapter shown that is marked "21-35 135" (http://www.l-camera-forum.com/leica-wiki.en/images/0/0f/Leicathread-m-adapter_a.jpg) What does it mean? There are no 21mm framelines so every single adapter will exactly work in the same way with a 21mm.

So, according to my experience:

- For an Elmar/Summaron 35mm you should go for an adapter marked 135 (or 13.5). Not the IRZOO/50mm ones.

- For an Hektor/Summaron 28mm you should go for an adapter marked 90 (or 9cm). Not those marked "28-50"

- For 21mm lenses it really doesn't matter which adapter you get. All of them will give you the same: coupling but wrong frames.

So, my personal advice would be to take care the following marks only: 50, 90 and 135. The rest of the frames will display according (28 with the 90, 75 with the 50 and 35 with the 135).

Any help comment/correction on this will be really appreciated.

Augusto

I’m pretty sure it’s just letting you use the 50mm focusing box/ghost image, and you add the external finder for the 28mm, that’s all. 

[Pyrogallol]

You have to remember that the Leitz adaptors were made long before the M cameras had 28mm frame lines, so the ones indicating 21 or 28mm are just telling you that they will bring up the widest frame available on an M3 or M2.

[UliWer]

A general rule of thumbs for all original Leitz adapters:

• if you use an M2 or any newer model up to the M11: just ignore any engraving for lenses other than 35, 50 or 90mm.  Have in mind the couplings 35/135, 50/75 and 90/28. For a lens wider than 28mm use the adapter which activates the widest frame your camera allows.  
• If you use an M3: stick to the engravings on the adapter. Instead of an adapter engraved 28/90 you better use an adapter for 50 if you prefer to avoid the 90mm frame showing up.

Only If you apply a 6-bit-code on your adapter to activate lens detection of a digital M you must use a 35mm adapter for 24mm and a 50mm Adapter for 21mm or wider. Lens detection  needs a certain position of the frame selector to work properly.