Using flash anyone? Any recommendation?

[sean_reid]

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Of course there is no specified way one need use a given camera. We're free to use them as a hammer to pound nails if we want. But it doesn't make it the best way to use it either. That is the origin of "Horses for courses".

 

The M has never been a good camera for heavy flash applications, and no-one makes a flash to solve the problem ... so we Frankinstein an elegant tool with gear bigger than the camera itself and requires 3 arms to use. I don't try to do telephoto or macro work with one either ... even though it's possible.

 

Sorry, most of this simply sounds like the tail wagging the dog to me.

 

Love my Ms, but not being a zealot about it, I don't think they are always the best tool for every job.

 

Pshaw...the M8 and flash work great together and Winogrand did excellent work with his older M film cameras and flash. I've done thousands and thousands of pictures for clients with RF cameras and flash. There's no "flash problem" at all, in my eyes, save for the fact that the hot shoe occupies the place where I could use an accessory finder for the 21 mm lenses. I don't use a lot of auto flash stuff and never have.

 

How on earth did we manage before auto-everything? I can't be the only one out there doing largely manual everything. Give me lots of juice and the ability to dial it down as needed and I'm quite happy.

 

Cheers,

 

Sean

[wparsonsgisnet]

M8 w/Vivitar 283.

 

I have used my M8 together with two20 years old Vivitar 283 - one triggered by a slave. Is it so that these old flashes are not recommended to be used with modern digital cameras? I have used both of my Vivitars frequently with my M8 - without any trouble.

 

Tom, you may be very lucky. I have a pair of 283's and always use an HSHS shoe with them. I believe the limit for the M8 is 6v. Does someone want to weigh in with a Leica-endorsed limit?

 

See here:

 

Photo Strobe Trigger Voltages

 

where, with regard to the 283, you will find:

 

Older units have been reported as high as 600V!

Recent (post-'87) revised 283's ("Made in China") are safer with modern cameras, running around 9-10V. Bob Atkins reports some as low as 5V. Recently units marked "Made in Korea" have also appeared... measured at 8v by Andrew Cassino and Tony Bonanno.

Kevin Omura used a Quantum battery and got a hefty 261.4V out of his (sn3012330), while

Göran Samuelsson had two units with different voltages: 230V and 190V. Other reports have had similar variety, up to 270V.

 

Would you like ketchup on those M8-fried eggs?

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[sean_reid]

Right, I'm told some of the newer Vivitars have lower trigger voltages but the old ones...

 

Cheers,

 

Sean

[Guest guy_mancuso]

Be careful senior' it's my only tool. LOL

 

Just kidding you Marc.

[mwilliamsphotography]

I know Guy : -)

 

Sean, no definitive answer because it's just opinion ... and with opinion, every point has it's counter point.

 

Winograd took X amount of pics with an old Leica and flash, and countless famous M users used no flash at all. You've taken thousands with a flash and Leica M, and one of the top 10 wedding photographers in the world took thousands with an M using no flash at all ...

 

IMO, the last camera I'd think of for flash work is a Leica M. One the other hand, It's one of the first I think of for available light. It struggles with flash compared to other choices, and excells at available light work compared to others.

 

To cut to the chase, all of this banter is because we like the M camera, not because it's the "Jack of all Trades" some people try to make it out to be. Not even Leica thinks that. If they had, why would the sync speed have stayed at 1/50th until a year ago?

[sean_reid]

I know Guy : -)

 

Sean, no definitive answer because it's just opinion ... and with opinion, every point has it's counter point.

 

Winograd took X amount of pics with an old Leica and flash, and countless famous M users used no flash at all. You've taken thousands with a flash and Leica M, and one of the top 10 wedding photographers in the world took thousands with an M using no flash at all ...

 

IMO, the last camera I'd think of for flash work is a Leica M. One the other hand, It's one of the first I think of for available light. It struggles with flash compared to other choices, and excells at available light work compared to others.

 

To cut to the chase, all of this banter is because we like the M camera, not because it's the "Jack of all Trades" some people try to make it out to be. Not even Leica thinks that. If they had, why would the sync speed have stayed at 1/50th until a year ago?

 

Hi Marc,

 

I think Leica was loathe to give up the cloth shutter until they had to. You and I may not agree on who the ten best wedding photographers in the world are but I agree that there is no definitive answer as to what can or should be done with a given camera. I'm primarily an existing light photographer but am quite happy with DRFs and flash when needed.

 

There are no rules about this stuff - none worth thinking about at least. Winogrand, BTW, is only one of many superb photographers who sometimes used flash with the Ms.

 

Cheers,

 

Sean

[Guest guy_mancuso]

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Well part of the issue with the M8 is where the shoe is . I wish it was set in a little further because my head hits all the time . Left eyed shooter. The other issue is no PC which i find pretty strange not being there but the real bottom line issue is flash units just don't sit on this camera very well. Just uncomfortable and i think most of us will agree there. I do agree it is not the best tool with flash. I get by but i wish i never even had to use these portables flashes to begin with in any system. Just the nature of some of the gigs we get and obviously there is no choice sometimes. But yes i love the M8 for available light work and it does a very nice job there but every situation does not always call for it and you have to pull out the flash guns. i would say this with any system portable flash is a compromise in most cases.

[sean_reid]

I do agree it is not the best tool with flash.

 

Hi Guy,

 

What problems are you having with using the M8 and flash (other than lack of PC socket)? I'm surprised that you've found it problematic.

 

Cheers,

 

Sean

[Guest guy_mancuso]

My biggest issue is really with the flash the way it sticks out in the back . I always have my head pressed against it. The other issue Sean is i can't see the shutter dial and maybe more me than anything else but the damn Metz is so big it blocks the shutter , now i wear reading glasses and there 200 so my closeup vision sucks, so it is a little tough. as far as working it is fine just a little uncomfortable. I wish the shoe was actually more on a small prism instead of flat on the deck. I know everyone just breath on that comment. LOL

 

 

Maybe i should just get the Wein safe just to raise the thing up and out of the way a little, that may help me more. Thanks for asking me that just gave me that idea. but as far as a working tool it is just like any other system and flash . We just need Metz to make a better flash for us. Look at the Canon flashes and they have a forward lean to them , same as the new Nikons. The Metz is straight up and down and reason i hit my head. Maybe i should switch to the Canon 580. The little SB 28 DX is also straight up and down. Maybe i should switch to canon flash or nikons. Jamie seems to like the canon 580 version II on it and i think they lean forward quite a bit.

 

sorry rambling there but i got some idea's

[mwilliamsphotography]

"We just need Metz to make a better flash for us"

 

Bingo.

 

I never liked the Metz units for the reasons you mentioned Guy, plus the finicky ergonomics of the controls ... except when on the H3D ... where the camera takes control of all flash functions.

 

I understand that we all need to use flash from time to time. I actually use it pretty frequently with digital capture to balance the tonal spread rather than for broad illumination ... and a better designed flash would extend the use of the M8 for my way of shooting ...

 

I'd kill for a downsized bare-bulb type TTL flash with a parabolic reflector and snap on diffusers. A mini-me version of a Quantum or Sunpack 120J.

 

Ever see the old Leitz Wetzlar flash with circular reflector? The reflector opened like a fan and had a handle with a sturdy metal shoe for on camera or could be hand held ... when folded up it would fit in your pocket. A modern version of that would be to die for.

[sean_reid]

My biggest issue is really with the flash the way it sticks out in the back . I always have my head pressed against it. The other issue Sean is i can't see the shutter dial and maybe more me than anything else but the damn Metz is so big it blocks the shutter , now i wear reading glasses and there 200 so my closeup vision sucks, so it is a little tough. as far as working it is fine just a little uncomfortable. I wish the shoe was actually more on a small prism instead of flat on the deck. I know everyone just breath on that comment. LOL

 

How about moving the flash to a bracket? Maybe a Stroboframe or one that holds it on the side of the camera? I always use flash in my left hand (zone focusing) but I know that won't work for everyone. So, its mostly a physical location thing for you then?

 

Cheers,

 

Sean

[hankg]

I'd kill for a downsized bare-bulb type TTL flash with a parabolic reflector and snap on diffusers. A mini-me version of a Quantum or Sunpack 120J.

 

Ever see the old Leitz Wetzlar flash with circular reflector? The reflector opened like a fan and had a handle with a sturdy metal shoe for on camera or could be hand held ... when folded up it would fit in your pocket. A modern version of that would be to die for.

 

That would be great. I love bare bulb heads -very flexible. Leica could have a 'system' of snap in reflectors and diffusers. Combine them for any combo of hard, soft, bounce and direct light. Imagine what Leica could charge for 10 cents worth of plastic if it was sold as a light shaper:) A telescoping tube would let you set the light where you want it.

 

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Or just take the M-grip and extend it to include the flash. Grip and flash all in one neat package.

 

[Jamie Roberts]

"We just need Metz to make a better flash for us"

 

Bingo.

 

I never liked the Metz units for the reasons you mentioned Guy, plus the finicky ergonomics of the controls ... except when on the H3D ... where the camera takes control of all flash functions.

 

 

...and Amen.

 

Heck, even though I'd love the mini quantum or other bare-bulb setup, I'd settle for a TTL, regular battery, bouncing smallish ergonomically designed flash that lives up to the design of the M8.

 

Oh, and let it have a PC out as well as in or a built in Pocket Wizard

 

(hey Marc--that top 10 wedding photographer (as pronounced in American Photography), now also has an M8. I wonder if he'll use flash with it? )

 

BTW--the Canon--even on the safe synch--also obscures the shutter dial, which is a drag.

 

@ Hank--I love the barebulb attachment for the grip

[Guest guy_mancuso]

Love the grip idea

[lars_bergquist]

Hey, I don't want a PC connection. I hated them. They suck. I was forever using pliers on them. No, as I said before, I want a screw-in multipole connector for a 'system' cord, with a flash shoe at the other end. Now is that rocket science of the 22nd century? Don't give me that. It was ordinary science of the 20th. Ignoring it was idiotic. Hear me, Mr. Lee?

 

The old man from the Age of Flashpowder

[mwilliamsphotography]

Here's what that old Leitz flash unit looked like Guy (rear view with reflector fanned out to a circle). Imagine the same basic design with modern electronics including TTL and hot shoe pins ... to use it off-camera with the grip it'd also need a hot shoe module .

 

Leica used to have all kinds of innovative and even strange mechanical accessories. Electronics have always been their weakness. For awhile Minolta made flash units for the R cameras which were altered designs and rebadged as Leica. I had one and it worked pretty well.

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Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members!

[wlaidlaw]

Hey, I don't want a PC connection. I hated them. They suck. I was forever using pliers on them. No, as I said before, I want a screw-in multipole connector for a 'system' cord, with a flash shoe at the other end. Now is that rocket science of the 22nd century? Don't give me that. It was ordinary science of the 20th. Ignoring it was idiotic. Hear me, Mr. Lee?

 

The old man from the Age of Flashpowder

 

Lars,

 

My old IIF has a rather nice solid PC connector which you push the lead into and then turn through 90º to lock. Being a Red Dial it also has the sophistication of variable flash sync. I used to use it with a Super Graflex flash gun which took PF100 bulbs. It was a bit like a small nuclear explosion going off. Unfortunately, when I was looking for it in the attic earlier this year, my son confessed to converting the Graflex flash gun into a light sabre about 10 years ago.

 

Wilson

[Guest guy_mancuso]

Here's what that old Leitz flash unit looked like Guy (rear view with reflector fanned out to a circle). Imagine the same basic design with modern electronics including TTL and hot shoe pins ... to use it off-camera with the grip it'd also need a hot shoe module .

 

Leica used to have all kinds of innovative and even strange mechanical accessories. Electronics have always been their weakness. For awhile Minolta made flash units for the R cameras which were altered designs and rebadged as Leica. I had one and it worked pretty well.

 

LOL i like that . I saw some of these on e-bay

[hankg]

Here's what that old Leitz flash unit looked like Guy (rear view with reflector fanned out to a circle).

 

Another view from Leicashop. The fan design makes for a large reflector that can be folded to very compact dimensions -it's a very practical design. Put a plastic diffuser or metal reflector in front of the bulb and you've got a mini beauty dish:)

 

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Even a small reflector (like on the pencil light below) or diffuser/reflector that can be swiveled around the bulb and tilted can effectively direct the light for bounce off the ceiling, a side wall or a combo of direct and bounce.

 

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Hallo,

Look here: Leica M

[Guest guy_mancuso]

What we need to do is rip apart a flash unit and put the flash tube in that and use like Chimera soft box material cover and see how that would work.