This is why I bought an M10R

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On 8/24/2020 at 2:43 PM, FlashGordonPhotography said:

I don't think it means that at all. Advances in technology don't always make what went before obsolete. Sometimes they just increase the range of what is possible.

For example. Using Leicas fastest lenses wide open during the day often requires the use of ND filters. Having a higher shutter speed range or more DR in a sensor can reduce the need to use these filters. Same shot is possible but modern technology makes it less frustrating.

Also it should be noted that the DR of the M10R has been available for years already. Cameras with larger sensors have this level of DR and more for half a decade at least.

And, having a different DR is really like having a b&w sensor or a fixed lens or a different format ratio. The amount of opportunities is still infinite but they're different to each other. The technology in the camera can help or hinder different images. With a wider DR available we can look at the world a little differently as we seek out wide DR opportunities. When I pick up my PenF my photos don't get better or worse than those from an M10R or X1D. But they sure are different.

Gordon

I’m here for gems like this.  Thank you Gordon.  Now back to play with the new M10-R I brought home today, trading in my first Leica, the M10...

[jdlaing]

17 minutes ago, 250swb said:

I'm almost sure your lack of comprehension is feigned just for an excuse to say something, but it comes across like a dog yapping in the distance.

This definition fits the Dr.
What exactly is a curmudgeon?

noun. The definition of a curmudgeon is a cranky, ill tempered individual. An example of a curmudgeon is a person who is always angry and never socializes with others. YourDictionary definition and usage example.

[jonoslack]

On 8/24/2020 at 9:38 PM, 250swb said:

I take your point, but I don't think photography should be about chasing your tail with every new development. Put it this way, if you think the DR of the M10R is a game changer and worth spending many thousands of dollars on (or losing many thousands in trade in), where does that put everybody's older photographs? You, like many other 'influencers', are on the path to obliterate previous work done by photographers by implying it's not now good enough, but you can do better, buy the M10R. 

It's a disgusting attitude to take, and if it isn't then write a blog about why a photograph by HCB or Koudelka is crap given it clearly doesn't conform to your current expectations of where photography has a ceiling? Be bold, why was a grainy low tech photograph great, and why isn't it great anymore?

Well, maybe Dr No was a little intemperate, but he has a point. 250swb (who I’ve quoted again) said that by wanting a little more headroom for shooting in bright light wide open I was “on the path to obliterate previous work done by photographers by implying it’s not good enough now” . . . More than that I should “write a blog about why a photograph by HCB or Koudelka is crap”

To suggest that a useful new feature in a camera is to negate older photographs seems pretty ludicrous to me too! And to suggest I should write a blog saying that two of my heroes are crap is a bit odd as well. 

Personally I was rather offended

Edited August 27, 2020 by jonoslack
Grammar

[Boojay]

30 minutes ago, jonoslack said:

 

Personally I was rather offended

Not surprised Jono, it was completely out of order and unwarranted!  Most of us recognise rubbish when we see it, being polite!  

Often wondered if a dislike button could be useful on these forums.

Edited August 27, 2020 by Boojay

[scott kirkpatrick]

Would that trolls that stay out until the sun rises would turn to stone, as they did in the good old days.

[Tailwagger]

At the risk of being crushed in the rubble of all this, I'll simply remark that there is a very strong dividing line between the technical excellence of the camera and that of the photographer. Heifetz with a $10 fiddle trumps any of us with a $1,000,000 Strad. I'll state for the record that so far AFAIC my best photographs have been made with an M10. The hope, of course, is that I have a few more in me and that the 10-R will be a contributing factor, perhaps making a few possible that otherwise might not have been.  As a strong advocate for the R,  I certainly don't find myself spitting on any of my previous work, at least nothing that I wasn't already disgusted by.  Equally, Jono gave me no impression that as the result of acquiring an M10-R he had set about to recall or destroy all of his previous work. 

Certainly for some the added technical benefits of a 10-R are of little consequence. It would be inane to argue the right or wrong of that position either way; it is a purely personal POV related to ones own methods, needs and desires.  But for those who do not find value in this latest update  the thing to understand is that as deluded you might find us to be, the added benefits we perceive have brought a new level of joy to the M experience.  Jono, IMO, was merely expressing that joy in a specific dimension and found himself excited enough to take the time to share those sentiments.  I certainly hope all this bile wont prevent him from doing so again in the future, nor anyone else for that matter. 

Regardless, I find it sad that what started in joy has turned toward anger. Perhaps we step away from this by heeding the words of our shared god, HCB, who once remarked in a slightly different context...

Quote

 ...when you shout, it is usually because you are short of arguments.

 

[Fedro]

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ok ... guys can we get back to the M10R please? thanks

Edited August 27, 2020 by Fedro

[Guest BlackBarn]

On 8/25/2020 at 6:40 AM, 250swb said:

Sure we can say images have always been manipulated, but today this is going beyond human interaction with the environment

You make an important point but I would suggest no photo ever made represents truly what the human eye was fully seeing at the time of capture and I very much doubt they ever will. What photographs do, beyond a visual memory reference, is try and make us feel or think differently through an association with reality.....which is relative to the  skill and creativity of the photographer.

Equipment are manipulation tools and as equipment becomes more technically able - say the M10R - this simply creates further options for manipulation. They enable us to sit in a tree with a bird or read a script 100 mtrs  away or look into the sun while at the same time looking into the depth of the shadows. The b/w photography of the past wasn’t in a world existing of b/w nor is the world today existing of people with zoom eyeballs and perfect adaptable multi tonal vision.

May be the concern you express is that people aren’t sensitive to the difference - they believe what they are photographing is true.

For me the joy of photography is that it sometimes shows me what I didn’t notice or could ever see and offers me the ability to manipulate what I did. The process can never intrude on my sense of the reality of visual life but it does on many occasions enhance the enjoyment.

 

[jonoslack]

3 hours ago, 250swb said:

Well get un-offended. A little more headroom used to be taken up with a new film or a new developer, so a few dollars. Now you suggest a little more headroom in the digital age is worth a few thousand dollars. A little more headroom is never worth a few thousand dollars given the M10R is an interim camera until the M11 comes along which may actually add new features and abilities. So stop being a victim, save your tears for those that ran out and bought the M10R.

 

I’m going to take this in two bits

This isn’t remotely offensive - you aren’t putting words into my mouth, and it’s your opinion. I don’t need to save my tears for those that ran out and bought an M10-R, I’m one of them, and I did it advisedly, after using one for over a year, because I think that it’s worth it. I’m perfectly aware of the possibilities of the M11 and I don’t dispute that the M10-R is an interim camera, but that doesn’t mean I don’t think that the M10-r is a worthwhile upgrade. Of course it isn’t just about the headroom, the files are a genuine improvement, and for me at least the extra resolution is worthwhile.

But if this was the message of your first post why didn’t you say it then - I can simply disagree, which is fine.

Edited August 27, 2020 by jonoslack

[anickpick]

Basically all digital cameras are great these days.
It is in the eye of the beholder whether the additional benefit of an M10-R exceeds the costs.The same will ultimately apply to an M11.
So straighten yourself up again, 250swb.

[jonoslack]

3 hours ago, 250swb said:

 

Edit: There is the cancel culture at work around the world right now, but cancel technology has been around for many, many years and especially in photography. You say the last camera isn't as good as the new camera because you are invested in saying so, you may quantify it, but your audience takes the bottom line literally, they are fans. So historically this means that all previous efforts become poorer, the person who used an M10 may feel their pictures are now not as good as they could have been, and etc. It's kind of like saying 'just imagine, if only Koudelka had an M10R, how much better the pictures would have been'. People are wired to be dissatisfied with what they have, so have a good reason to spend their money and not brag about you spending your money 

Your original post was just rude, this is much more interesting!

All I said was that this camera has an advantage over the previous one. This might (possibly) give me more options for photographs in the future, but your real disconnect is to suggest that this has anything to do with efforts in the past. I’m not implying (and never was) that buying a new camera will make you take better pictures - I didn’t say it, I didn’t mean it I didn’t infer it and I don’t think it. Whether or not Koudelka would have taken better pictures with an M10-R is entirely irrelevant (although it seems unlikely as he didn’t have a computer).

If what you’re trying to say is that because I have an audience it’s my responsibility not to ‘brag about spending your money’ then that is something I maybe should think harder about (and I am), but of course the only real solution is to stop talking about new cameras. Because at any point I say anything positive then I fall back in the same trap. 

Of course, you might think I should shut up, but generally speaking I think that my responsibility is not to say anything which I don’t believe (especially if it might encourage someone to spend money). I’m pretty careful not to do that, and I certainly wasn’t doing that in this instance

 

[250swb]

35 minutes ago, jonoslack said:

Your original post was just rude, this is much more interesting!

All I said was that this camera has an advantage over the previous one. This might (possibly) give me more options for photographs in the future, but your real disconnect is to suggest that this has anything to do with efforts in the past. I’m not implying (and never was) that buying a new camera will make you take better pictures - I didn’t say it, I didn’t mean it I didn’t infer it and I don’t think it. Whether or not Koudelka would have taken better pictures with an M10-R is entirely irrelevant (although it seems unlikely as he didn’t have a computer).

If what you’re trying to say is that because I have an audience it’s my responsibility not to ‘brag about spending your money’ then that is something I maybe should think harder about (and I am), but of course the only real solution is to stop talking about new cameras. Because at any point I say anything positive then I fall back in the same trap. 

Of course, you might think I should shut up, but generally speaking I think that my responsibility is not to say anything which I don’t believe (especially if it might encourage someone to spend money). I’m pretty careful not to do that, and I certainly wasn’t doing that in this instance

 

No it wasn't rude, it was 'amazed'.

Promoting the spending of thousands of dollars on a new camera based on a bit more headroom drops my jaw, if you don't see the irony when you are a beta tester for Leica then there is no hope for anybody listening to you. Sure some people will follow the scent, but the M10R is even more temporary and even more pointless for the majority of photographers than most of Leica's offerings in recent times. If this was a specialist discussion about theatre photography or similar I could imagine the extra headroom of an M10R may be a vital element, but for 99% of Leica photographers on this forum it won't make any difference at all other than the bank balance, even if they pixel peep. Thousands of dollars for that? It is symptomatic across the industry that the old camera is now not fit for purpose because hey, you may just meet those situations you never even considered or complained about before.

Big revolutions have gone on continually in photography for near on 180 years and only in recent times has the previous work of photographers been cast in doubt, largely driven by marketing and the next best sensor. Now is the age when a tiny improvement costs thousands and appeals to people who want to tick the box to say they are riding the crest of the wave. Do they make better photographs, no, they make the same photograph time after time, every Summer holiday and every Christmas. That is the sink hole of new cameras unless they offer a proper step change, and that is the hole reviewers dig for their fans.

Edited August 27, 2020 by 250swb

[jonoslack]

15 minutes ago, 250swb said:

No it wasn't rude, it was 'amazed'.

 

No, it was rude - and you’ve made your point - and I’ve tried to reply in a measured and civil tone (and it really doesn’t seem like you’ve read what I’ve written as you haven’t answered it, but simply gone off on a different version of the same tirade). I’m not casting the work of previous photographers in doubt, perhaps you are? Wonder why I bothered

Edited August 27, 2020 by jonoslack

[FlashGordonPhotography]

27 minutes ago, 250swb said:

No it wasn't rude, it was 'amazed'.

Promoting the spending of thousands of dollars on a new camera based on a bit more headroom drops my jaw, if you don't see the irony when you are a beta tester for Leica then there is no hope for anybody listening to you. Sure some people will follow the scent, but the M10R is even more temporary and even more pointless for the majority of photographers than most of Leica's offerings in recent times. If this was a specialist discussion about theatre photography or similar I could imagine the extra headroom of an M10R may be a vital element, but for 99% of Leica photographers on this forum it won't make any difference at all other than the bank balance, even if they pixel peep. Thousands of dollars for that? It is symptomatic across the industry that the old camera is now not fit for purpose because hey, you may just meet those situations you never even considered or complained about before.

Big revolutions have gone on continually in photography for near on 180 years and only in recent times has the previous work of photographers been cast in doubt, largely driven by marketing and the next best sensor. Now is the age when a tiny improvement costs thousands and appeals to people who want to tick the box to say they are riding the crest of the wave. Do they make better photographs, no, they make the same photograph time after time, every Summer holiday and every Christmas. That is the sink hole of new cameras unless they offer a proper step change, and that is the hole reviewers dig for their fans.

I see it this way. Who cares if it's thousands of dollars for an incremental upgrade?

The decision to spend or not spend the money is up to the individual who's money it is. Not to an audience with no knowledge of the purchaser. I am not the richest person on these forums. Nor am I the poorest. But I will spend my money how I please and no one else gets a say in what I do with my hard earned cash. So what if I like shiny new things and I'm an awful photographer. It's my money and I'm not hurting anyone.

Discretionary purchases don't have to make sense. They almost never do. That's daft and a good way to kill an economy. People buy a Mercedes instead of a Toyota or a Tag instead of a Casio. A big TV or a new set of golf clubs. I know people who spend more on a road bike than an M10 just to save 500 grams. Won't make them faster but it makes them feel good. So why not? There's a thing called *pride of ownership*. People like shiny stuff. I don't buy my girl a piece of jewelry (actually in her case a pair of shoes....) because is functions better than the piece she already has. If we were being purely logical the Leica wouldn't exist. We'd still be shooting Canikony! We're so far from logical purchases it's laughable so arguing that upgrading from a M10 to M10R because you don't need it is laughable in itself.

I'm sure you wanted to say "I don't see the point and I'm not going to spend my money on what I see as an incremental upgrade". Great. But that's not how it reads. It reads that you think we're idiots for upgrading and wasting or money on something that's not going to make any difference to our photography. Which is (a) wrong and (b) the whole point of Leica to begin with.

Most of us work stupidly hard for our money and we really don't like being told how to spend it or that we're stupid for doing it. We're not.

We get enough people telling us we're stupid for buying Leica from outside the Leica community that we really don't appreciate it from within.

Gordon

[Jeff S]

1 hour ago, jonoslack said:

Your original post was just rude, this is much more interesting!

All I said was that this camera has an advantage over the previous one. This might (possibly) give me more options for photographs in the future, but your real disconnect is to suggest that this has anything to do with efforts in the past. I’m not implying (and never was) that buying a new camera will make you take better pictures - I didn’t say it, I didn’t mean it I didn’t infer it and I don’t think it. Whether or not Koudelka would have taken better pictures with an M10-R is entirely irrelevant (although it seems unlikely as he didn’t have a computer).

If what you’re trying to say is that because I have an audience it’s my responsibility not to ‘brag about spending your money’ then that is something I maybe should think harder about (and I am), but of course the only real solution is to stop talking about new cameras. Because at any point I say anything positive then I fall back in the same trap. 

Of course, you might think I should shut up, but generally speaking I think that my responsibility is not to say anything which I don’t believe (especially if it might encourage someone to spend money). I’m pretty careful not to do that, and I certainly wasn’t doing that in this instance

 

Keep saying exactly what you think, Jono, with enthusiasm if that’s your take. If anybody is unable to make their own informed decision, that’s on them, especially given the cost. We (I) are (am) better informed because of your posts and articles.  GAS has no specific source or cure. I’m not buying the M10-R, but that’s not because you failed to ‘sell’ me; last I checked, that’s not your role. Keep enjoying yours; that’s all that should matter for each of us.  
 

I’m guessing that Leica won’t be changing the camera name to M10-H (headroom), despite Steve’s attempt to cherry pick your comments.
 

Jeff
 

 

 

[jonoslack]

7 minutes ago, Jeff S said:

Keep saying exactly what you think, Jono, with enthusiasm if that’s your take. If anybody is unable to make their own informed decision, that’s on them, especially given the cost. We (I) are (am) better informed because of your posts and articles.  GAS has no specific source or cure. I’m not buying the M10-R, but that’s not because you failed to ‘sell’ me; last I checked, that’s not your role. Keep enjoying yours; that’s all that should matter for each of us.  
 

Jeff

Thank you Jeff - I didn’t think it was my role either, and it certainly wasn’t the intent of this post (childish enthusiasm would more accurate). 

[Jeff S]

7 minutes ago, FlashGordonPhotography said:

It reads that you think we're idiots for upgrading and wasting or money on something that's not going to make any difference to our photography. Which is (a) wrong and (b) the whole point of Leica to begin with.

 

Much worse: buyers will contribute to the destruction of photo history, negating the work of legends. And Jono is complicit. Beyond silly and ridiculous.

Jeff

[Tailwagger]

28 minutes ago, Jeff S said:

Much worse: buyers will contribute to the destruction of photo history, negating the work of legends.

That's been my plan all along. We need to get all those old mastery farts out of the picture so a few of us lessers can get our 1/15 of a second's worth of frame fame.  I'm pleased to discover, tip of the cap to Jono, that I finally have a proper tool for the job. Viva la revolution! Out from the shadows! Off with their highlights!

Edited August 27, 2020 by Tailwagger

[FlashGordonPhotography]

5 minutes ago, Jeff S said:

Much worse: buyers will contribute to the destruction of photo history, negating the work of legends. And Jono is complicit. Beyond silly and ridiculous.

Jeff

I'm sorry but. No.

No one has even suggested this except you. You say we're doing this when clearly we're not.

It's like saying medium format lessens the impact of images taken on 135 format. Which also isn't true. The ONLY people interested in what camera took a great image are other amateur photographers. The vast majority just judge it on it's merit with no knowledge of what camera was used. But....

This is a GEAR forum. Those people are HERE! This discussion is about the differences between the M10 and M10R. If Jono started a discussion about gear not improving your images it would actually be MOVED out of this section!

Yes. It happens. People do like to tell you how the previous model or ever camera before it has been rendered useless because we now have feature *X*. But that didn't happen here. It was "My shooting envelope has been expanded in a way I like". That's all.

Gordon

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Hallo,

Look here: Leica M

[Jeff S]

6 minutes ago, FlashGordonPhotography said:

I'm sorry but. No.

No one has even suggested this except you. You say we're doing this when clearly we're not.

It's like saying medium format lessens the impact of images taken on 135 format. Which also isn't true. The ONLY people interested in what camera took a great image are other amateur photographers. The vast majority just judge it on it's merit with no knowledge of what camera was used. But....

This is a GEAR forum. Those people are HERE! This discussion is about the differences between the M10 and M10R. If Jono started a discussion about gear not improving your images it would actually be MOVED out of this section!

Yes. It happens. People do like to tell you how the previous model or ever camera before it has been rendered useless because we now have feature *X*. But that didn't happen here. It was "My shooting envelope has been expanded in a way I like". That's all.

Gordon

???  I think you’re confusing me with Steve (250swb), Gordon. I was ridiculing his comments... “beyond silly and ridiculous”.

Jeff 

Edited August 27, 2020 by Jeff S