Leica M10-R: Review by Jonathan Slack

[helged]

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3 hours ago, M10Alpine said:

can this improvement of the highlights not be fixed via firmware update? Sorry if this is a stupid question. 

See @scott kirkpatricks comment above. Without knowing the details, I dont think one can easily improve highlight clipping (without otherwise deteriorating output) with a FW update. 

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[Mark II]

Surely just leaving some negative exposure compensation dialled in will protect the highlights?
 

The photonstophotos.net dynamic range charts show the M10 and M10R as having pretty much identical dynamic range (the M10M gets about 1/3 stop more, plus the expected boost in ISO sensitivity). How does this square with peoples’ observations in this thread? Is it possible that Leica has adjusted the ISO definition again - ie if I were to shoot the same scene at the same ISO and aperture on the M10 and M10R, does the M10R use a faster shutter speed?

[mike3996]

On 9/2/2020 at 8:39 AM, Mark II said:

 

The photonstophotos.net dynamic range charts show the M10 and M10R as having pretty much identical dynamic range (the M10M gets about 1/3 stop more, plus the expected boost in ISO sensitivity). How does this square with peoples’ observations in this thread?

Photonstophotos uses crowdsourced images to make the graphs. Not always reliable, especially if a single person has submitted files for a camera.

[scott kirkpatrick]

19 minutes ago, mike3996 said:

Photonstophotos uses crowdsourced images to make the graphs. Not always reliable, especially if a single person has submitted files for a camera.

Bill Claff and DXO have quite different methodologies.  Neither is very transparent, although you can track Claff's methodology though several pages of technical articles that he provides, which still leave me with some questions..  DXO just says "trust us".  In both cases, somebody is shooting a test chart with patches at different brightnesses, but no test chart can provide the 10 or more stops that you want to observe, so some magic is involved to extract the full range from multiple shots. Claff uses measurements of dark noise and noise in a uniform lighted image to better understand where the shadows end and where useful detail in highlights goes away, and is conservative about the DR numbers which he reports.  He doesn't actually have all those cameras, but finds one or two people to each produce about 100 test shots for each new camera for his database, following his instructions.  I wouldn't call that "crowd-sourced," because any contributor has to provide a complete set of shots, and work with Bill to ensure that they check out.

You can always do this kind of study for yourself.  Carl Weese wrote up his personal method years ago.  Hang a strip of paper towel with a nice toothy texture, illuminated from the side but uniformly across the area that you will shoot.  Fix ISO.  Fix aperture.  Shoot a sufficient range of shutter speeds to go from highliights too white to show any texture to shadows too dark to show any detail.  The difference between these two points is DR at that ISO.  A lot of work, and more appropriate for those working in B/W film who wanted to understand the effects of various development protocols..

Edited September 4, 2020 by scott kirkpatrick

[Mark II]

Yes, one reason I am a bit wary of Bill Claff's methodology is because, at least originally, comparisons between cameras appeared sensitive to changes in the manufacturer's interpretation of ISO (an example of this is the data for the Olympus E-M1.2, which looks far better on the DR comparisons than it is in real life). In my experience, the DXO charts are much more consistent with what I see with my own cameras, but DXO have recently been taking a very very long time to add measurements and support for Leica cameras.

And yes, I could measure the DR myself. But that does kind of presume access to a camera...

I think Sean Reid is going to write up a test in the not too distant future.

[SrMi]

6 hours ago, mike3996 said:

Photonstophotos uses crowdsourced images to make the graphs. Not always reliable, especially if a single person has submitted files for a camera.

The way that the images are generated, there is very little that can go wrong. Do you remember any time that PhotonsToPhotos had to correct the measurements?

Edited September 4, 2020 by SrMi

[SrMi]

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On 9/1/2020 at 10:39 PM, Mark II said:

Surely just leaving some negative exposure compensation dialled in will protect the highlights?
 

The photonstophotos.net dynamic range charts show the M10 and M10R as having pretty much identical dynamic range (the M10M gets about 1/3 stop more, plus the expected boost in ISO sensitivity). How does this square with peoples’ observations in this thread? Is it possible that Leica has adjusted the ISO definition again - ie if I were to shoot the same scene at the same ISO and aperture on the M10 and M10R, does the M10R use a faster shutter speed?

Maybe when people talk about the dynamic range, they think of the camera output's malleability, which is not the same as dynamic range. 

[Jeff S]

9 minutes ago, SrMi said:

Maybe when people talk about the dynamic range, they think of the camera output's malleability, which is not the same as dynamic range. 

Dynamic range and exposure latitude are more often confused than not, it seems.

Jeff

[scott kirkpatrick]

17 hours ago, Mark II said:

And yes, I could measure the DR myself. But that does kind of presume access to a camera...

I think Sean Reid is going to write up a test in the not too distant future.

Sean  is now 7 tenths of the way thorough a planned 10-article summary of lab, studio and field comparisons between the M10-P,M,R and SL2 with 21, 28, and 35 mm lenses, following his standard methods so that you can compare with older cameras.  He doesn't do numbers -- his results are all expressed as images.

[250swb]

Sean Reid is the only reviewer who both likes Leica but is also capable of showing the warts and all in excruciatingly detailed images alongside an intelligent commentary. He will sort it all out.