pgk Posted July 8, 2020 Share #141 Posted July 8, 2020 Advertisement (gone after registration) 9 hours ago, jaapv said: It is not a curse - nor magic. The secret is to machine the mount and flange to extremely tight tolerances and adjust everything to a precise common standard. Leica is precision - the others you mention strive for precision. There is a difference - and it shows. I would suggest that 90 years of experience shows too. Yes, Leica had to tighten tolerances when they moved to the digital Ms, but in all honesty many of us were using M lenses which were decades old, often had never been serviced and which were built to a different set of tolerances in the first place. I think that it is an accolade to Leica that they can adjust and tighten up tolerances - this is not the case with many other makers' lenses including some current designs which are not so easily adjusted. Like others here I hope that there are new digital rangefinders and M mount cameras brought to the market. My real concern is price point. A new, unknown maker building high end equipment is always going to be in a 'fragile' situation until their product is validated by users and for a reasonable time. I, like others would have thought that an evf only model might have been an initially cheaper and easier to build product which could have had a lower price and been quite an attraction. Time will tell. 2 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted July 8, 2020 Posted July 8, 2020 Hi pgk, Take a look here Pixii : A new M mount rangefinder. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
jankap Posted July 8, 2020 Share #142 Posted July 8, 2020 Extreme tight tolerances are necessary to produce the rangefinder principle, making the RF cameras expensive. Tolerances are standardized, one needs the machinery. Think of lenses, 100 years of experience is not necessary, startups can even produce aspheric surfaces nowadays. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
pgk Posted July 8, 2020 Share #143 Posted July 8, 2020 14 minutes ago, jankap said: Extreme tight tolerances are necessary to produce the rangefinder principle, making the RF cameras expensive. Tolerances are standardized, one needs the machinery. Think of lenses, 100 years of experience is not necessary, startups can even produce aspheric surfaces nowadays. In my experience startups usually repeat the learned mistakes of established companies and initial designs need to be refined to be optimised. I have seen this many times. Good design is not as simple as people often think. 2 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
nicci78 Posted July 8, 2020 Share #144 Posted July 8, 2020 https://ams.com/cmv50000 They picked the wrong sensor from AMS. CMS5000 seems awesome : 47.5MP full frame + global shutter ! 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jankap Posted July 8, 2020 Share #145 Posted July 8, 2020 vor 2 Minuten schrieb pgk: In my experience startups usually repeat the learned mistakes of established companies and initial designs need to be refined to be optimised. I have seen this many times. Good design is not as simple as people often think. Perhaps. Success depends not on good products alone. Marketing is another standing leg. I just started to read the interview in another thread and switched it off after 5 minutes. What would Leica be without HCB, Eisenstadt or Barnack? Compare it with the Lytro Illum, an excellent produced camera inclusive software (see Rangefinderforum). Of course it was a byproduct of a research project, but they had the hope to achieve more. But there was no support in the sense of marketing. 2 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
andybarton Posted July 8, 2020 Share #146 Posted July 8, 2020 20 minutes ago, nicci78 said: https://ams.com/cmv50000 They picked the wrong sensor from AMS. CMS5000 seems awesome : 47.5MP full frame + global shutter ! Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/311132-pixii-a-new-m-mount-rangefinder/?do=findComment&comment=4005693'>More sharing options...
jaapv Posted July 8, 2020 Share #147 Posted July 8, 2020 Advertisement (gone after registration) 18 hours ago, jankap said: Mr. Barnack had a separate distance measuring device for the accessory shoe. Back to Pixii. A new chapter for the forum? They use the M-mount at least, perhaps already foreseen by Mr. Barnack. The Leica M was designed as a development of the Barnack photographic philosophy, so that is very pertinent - up to and including the M10 - even CL, one might argue. It has always been a cornerstone of Leica - and this camera appears to attempt to encroach on this niche. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jankap Posted July 8, 2020 Share #148 Posted July 8, 2020 vor 11 Minuten schrieb jaapv: The Leica M was designed as a development of the Barnack photographic philosophy, so that is very pertinent - up to and including the M10 - even CL, one might argue. It has always been a cornerstone of Leica - and this camera appears to attempt to encroach on this niche. No, not Mr. Barnack alone. The decision to commercialize was made by Mr. Leitz on the basis of his DIY product. To make a consumer product from a prototype takes some more time. Mr. Barnack had to play the role of the first showpiece. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted July 8, 2020 Share #149 Posted July 8, 2020 Philosophy, not decision. Leitz was the boss and manufacturer. Barnack had the idea and concept. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
pierovitch Posted July 8, 2020 Share #150 Posted July 8, 2020 3 hours ago, andybarton said: Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! The free sample and a DIY project upgrade for the dreamers. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jankap Posted July 8, 2020 Share #151 Posted July 8, 2020 vor 2 Stunden schrieb jaapv: Philosophy, not decision. Leitz was the boss and manufacturer. Barnack had the idea and concept. That was the Ur-Leica then. Idea, concept, what you want. A product is a different thing. I was in a company where development was 200 km away from marketing. Marketing decides, what can be sold and has to be made. They met exactly at the half distance in between to check the performance against the duties specifications. They did to trust each other. Because from idea to product, there is timespan of 2, 3 or more months. And in perhaps 4 months a new situation arises and one could have changed the performance specification without noticing the development. And vice versa. From the concept (Ur-leica) to a product with a manual and a nation wide sales department the responsibility changes from one person to a committee. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
nicci78 Posted July 8, 2020 Share #152 Posted July 8, 2020 Instead of merging threads, can we rename this one into : Pixii, the latest M mount camera announced. the current title is not clear enough Is customer forum the right place for this subject ? Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
nicci78 Posted July 8, 2020 Share #153 Posted July 8, 2020 I am quite worried about the viewfinder size. It is a 0.68x one. But it only show 28mm aka 42mm at best. Does it mean that the OVF is incredibly small ? If it was a 0.68x with the same size as Leica M typ 240 one. It should be able to show lines for 18mm aka 28mm equivalent. Leica M8 managed to include lines for 24mm aka 32mm equivalent. Weirdly M8 did not include 21mm (28mm) frame lines. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
pop Posted July 8, 2020 Share #154 Posted July 8, 2020 vor 28 Minuten schrieb nicci78: Weirdly M8 did not include 21mm (28mm) frame lines. The M mount can set framelines for lenses of focal lengths of 35, 50 and 90mm, respectively. There are no frame lines for 21mm or 24mm. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
nicci78 Posted July 8, 2020 Share #155 Posted July 8, 2020 (edited) M8 has 24+35mm & 50+75mm & 28+90mm framelines From M8.2 tech data : ”Image framing By display of two bright- line frames at a time: for 24 and 35 mm or for 28 and 90 mm or for 50 and 75 mm. Display selection automatically matches the lens in use. 100% of the sensor format is covered at 0.7 m (LEICA M8.2: 2 m).“ Sadly M8 did not try to include 21mm instead of 24mm. Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! Edited July 8, 2020 by nicci78 Quote Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/311132-pixii-a-new-m-mount-rangefinder/?do=findComment&comment=4005869'>More sharing options...
nicci78 Posted July 8, 2020 Share #156 Posted July 8, 2020 Ok I understand my mistake M8/M8.2 viewfinder is a 0.68x over APS-H 1.33x crop factor. So it is equivalent to full frame 0.9x viewfinder. Hence the maximum framelines are 24mm (32mm). Just like MP/M7 0.85x viewfinder cannot accommodate 28mm framelines. So Pixii 0.68x should be regarded against its APS-C sensor size. Making it equivalent to 1x viewfinder. Which is life size. A very good point. That explain why Pixii cannot accommodate more than 28mm (42mm) lines. Just like M3 0.91x only support 50mm at the widest. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
TomB_tx Posted July 8, 2020 Share #157 Posted July 8, 2020 (edited) 1 hour ago, pop said: The M mount can set framelines for lenses of focal lengths of 35, 50 and 90mm, respectively. There are no frame lines for 21mm or 24mm. I believe one of the Voitlander M mount bodies did include a frame for 21mm - set manually by lever. Edited July 8, 2020 by TomB_tx Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
lct Posted July 8, 2020 Share #158 Posted July 8, 2020 (edited) There are indeed 24/28/35/50/75/90 frame lines in the M8 viewfinder but those are not "equivalent" focal lengths in any way. Those are actual focal lengths as they should be i.e. when one mounts a 24mm lens on the camera it brings up 24mm frame lines accordingly. Fields of views are another story. BTW it would have been perfectly possible to design 21mm frame lines for the M8, but the VF magnification would have been reduced and the RF accuracy would have decreased necessarily, let alone that the 90mm and perhaps 75mm frame lines would have been too small then. Using the entire VF window to frame 21mm lenses works fine on my M8.2 generally. Edited July 8, 2020 by lct Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
lct Posted July 8, 2020 Share #159 Posted July 8, 2020 28 minutes ago, TomB_tx said: I believe one of the Voitlander M mount bodies did include a frame for 21mm - set manually by lever. +1. It was the Bessa R4M but its VF magnification was reduced to 0.52x if memory serves. By comparison my R-D1 with similar body has a 1:1 built-in VF but cannot frame 21mm lenses with it. It has only 28/35/50 frame lines instead of 28/35/40/50 for the Pixii. Good idea to have added 40mm BTW. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
adan Posted July 8, 2020 Share #160 Posted July 8, 2020 2 hours ago, nicci78 said: am quite worried about the viewfinder size. It is a 0.68x one. But it only show 28mm aka 42mm at best. Does it mean that the OVF is incredibly small ? Ever looked through a screw-mount Leica finder (IIIc, IIIf)? IMHO, a very nice viewing magnification for "normalish" focal lengths, in that it makes it easier to take in the whole composition with one glance. Same for the Contax G viewfinders. Not so good for focus precision, of course, which is why those cameras had separate RF viewing (or in the case of the Contax, autofocus). Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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