12cm f/4.5 Summar

[pgk]

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On an M Bellows fitted to a Sony A7II - surprisingly good. Does anyone know how to date these lenses?

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[michali]

2 hours ago, pgk said:

On an M Bellows fitted to a Sony A7II - surprisingly good. Does anyone know how to date these lenses?

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Paul go to this French website : Leica Lens Serial Nos.

You'll see "Objectif" below this is "Numéro de série :" enter the lens serial no. in the box next to this & then click on the box below "Interroger la base".

It should give you the date of manufacture. 

Best

Mike

Edited April 17, 2020 by michali

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[pgk]

Thanks Mike but when I do so it simply says that no lens has the serial number of mine (33439)!

Extrapolating from the LUF Wiki would suggest around 1930 which I suppose might be possible?

Edited April 17, 2020 by pgk

[a.noctilux]

Paul,

1935 ? if your lens is like this one (I don't know his source)

Repro lens not so many made.

[pgk]

9 minutes ago, a.noctilux said:

Paul,

1935 ? if your lens is like this one (I don't know his source)

Repro lens not so many made.

That's the one. I'll keep looking into the serial numbers.

[thomas_schertel]

I think, t6hose lenses have been made for Repro and other purposes

[willeica]

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Paul. I have sent you some material from the Lens Vademecum tonight which describes this lens and others in the Summar group. It seems that such lenses were around from at least 1908 and were common in the pre-Leica period when they were listed as portrait lenses. It also seems that in later years such lenses were used with adapters for the Aristophot copying instruments for photo macrography/micrography. I  will look through what I have to see if I can trace any serial number information. If your lens came with a blood red box, then it is likely to have been from post 1930.   I will possibly have more tomorrow.

William

[willeica]

I have sent a lot of material about this lens directly to Paul (pgk). It was made from around the turn of the last century up to about the mid 1930s. There are some antecedents of the lens going back into the 19th Century and there were variants in brass as well as the more common black. There was a range of Summar lenses with various focal lengths and maximum apertures. The lenses were also used in the Moment and Klapp cameras marketed by Leitz prior to the Leica period. These cameras were for general types of work, including portraiture. In later years the lens would have been used for copying and close up work using various devices made by Leitz. It does not appear in the Leica catalogues as it was not really part of the Leica system. Jim Lager shows an example of the lens in an Ibsor dial set shutter. A device with such a shutter appears in Leica catalogues with a reference to more details being available in Leitz Scientific Catalogues which I don't have.

There is quite a lot of material, but if anyone is interested in any of it, please send me a PM.

William

 

[dkCambridgeshire]

The Summar 12cm f4.5 appears in the Leitz Aristophot booklet,  List Micro No. 8369 VIII/52/AX  (August 1952?) …  in matrices (for both 9x12cm and 24mm x36mm formats)  documenting reproduction ratios and bellows extensions for 24mm, 35mm, 42mm 50mm, 6.5cm, 8cm, 10cm. and 12cm lenses. The booklet's previous owner has annotated the cover 'May 1956 from Leitz'.   The Leica Collectors Guide 2nd Edition on page 462 … and 1st Edition on page 303, both state: 'Macro lenses … did not appear in general photographic catalogues until the New York one of 1939 … There were two series - Summar and Milar . All were of f4.5 … Post war they were all coated … Milar lenses were were recommended for applications requiring maximum contrast, whereas the Summar series had superior colour correction  Both series remained on production until the early 70s … '

This is my 12cm Summar with its 'scratched on' SN 30352 

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Same lens with its 120.150  M40x0.75 adapter … the adapter screws into the Leica R adapter 500 935 for use on the R bellows. 

 

The lens was also available with the M40x0.75 screw thread … as were the other Summar and Milar macro lenses. In the 1970s,  Leica Photography Magazine published a series of articles, (Parts 1 to 4 … but maybe also Part 5 etc?)   'Leitz lenses for Leicaflex and Leica' . I have a photocopy of Part 4, pages 118-122, covering close-up and macrophotography …  which documents the Summar, Milar and Photar lenses.  Unfortunately their are no dates on the photocopies to identify the actual magazine's publication date.

The Summar macro lenses appear to have been in production for many years . 

BW

dunk 

[willeica]

55 minutes ago, dkCambridgeshire said:

The Summar 12cm f4.5 appears in the Leitz Aristophot booklet,  List Micro No. 8369 VIII/52/AX  (August 1952?) …  in matrices (for both 9x12cm and 24mm x36mm formats)  documenting reproduction ratios and bellows extensions for 24mm, 35mm, 42mm 50mm, 6.5cm, 8cm, 10cm. and 12cm lenses. The booklet's previous owner has annotated the cover 'May 1956 from Leitz'.   The Leica Collectors Guide 2nd Edition on page 462 … and 1st Edition on page 303, both state: 'Macro lenses … did not appear in general photographic catalogues until the New York one of 1939 … There were two series - Summar and Milar . All were of f4.5 … Post war they were all coated … Milar lenses were were recommended for applications requiring maximum contrast, whereas the Summar series had superior colour correction  Both series remained on production until the early 70s … '

This is my 12cm Summar with its 'scratched on' SN 30352 

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Same lens with its 120.150  M40x0.75 adapter … the adapter screws into the Leica R adapter 500 935 for use on the R bellows. 

 

The lens was also available with the M40x0.75 screw thread … as were the other Summar and Milar macro lenses. In the 1970s,  Leica Photography Magazine published a series of articles, (Parts 1 to 4 … but maybe also Part 5 etc?)   'Leitz lenses for Leicaflex and Leica' . I have a photocopy of Part 4, pages 118-122, covering close-up and macrophotography …  which documents the Summar, Milar and Photar lenses.  Unfortunately their are no dates on the photocopies to identify the actual magazine's publication date.

The Summar macro lenses appear to have been in production for many years . 

BW

dunk 

Thanks Dunk. I will contact you by email about this. This confirms my conclusion that the lens ended its days doing closeup and macrophotography. I have a lot of material which I can give you about the early days of the lens from about 1900. I have photos which show a brass variant from the early days and also photos of the lens on pre-Leica cameras sold by Leitz. There was a range of such Summar lenses with varying focal lengths and maximum apertures. Based on what you say, this lens must have been produced for about 70 years, which is a very long production span, even by Leica standards.

William

 

[pgk]

1 hour ago, dkCambridgeshire said:

This is my 12cm Summar with its 'scratched on' SN 30352 

Same lens with its 120.150  M40x0.75 adapter … the adapter screws into the Leica R adapter 500 935 for use on the R bellows. 

Thanks dunk. Same lens variant and adapter as mine. Serial number scratched in the same place too. Do you have any info on dates/serial numbers?

[dkCambridgeshire]

2 hours ago, willeica said:

Thanks Dunk. I will contact you by email about this. This confirms my conclusion that the lens ended its days doing closeup and macrophotography. I have a lot of material which I can give you about the early days of the lens from about 1900. I have photos which show a brass variant from the early days and also photos of the lens on pre-Leica cameras sold by Leitz. There was a range of such Summar lenses with varying focal lengths and maximum apertures. Based on what you say, this lens must have been produced for about 70 years, which is a very long production span, even by Leica standards.

William

 

 

1 hour ago, pgk said:

Thanks dunk. Same lens variant and adapter as mine. Serial number scratched in the same place too. Do you have any info on dates/serial numbers?

Thank you William and Paul.   William I'm very interested in seeing the historical documentation if and when you have time to Email same … but there is no hurry.  I have two other Summar macro lenses:  80mm SN 29785 (seized aperture mechanism) and 35mm Summar SN 8947 … both SNs are 'scratched on' . The 3 lenses were bought s/h as a set from Ffordes many years ago … all have adapters. Paul , unfortunately I have no manufacturing dates. I'll have to check to see if actual SNs appear to have been 'scratched on' by same person. I'll post better photos. 

I can also scan the 4 page article if of interest 

BW

dunk 

[kangaroo2012]

Last year I bought a set of Summars in London.

24mm, 42mm, apertures marked 2,6,12 the objectives are RMS thread for microscopes but both have M39 adapters fitted.

The 42 mm was bought as it was the focal length used by Herr Barnack on the UR Leica.

Next the 80mm f=4.5,  marked with apertures 2,4,6,12,24, possibly originally RMS but fitted to an M39 extension tube marked 20-35.

Then 12 cm f=4.5 also marked 2,4,6,12,24,48, 96 , this in M39 thread in an M39 extension tube marked 42-65.

The 24mm and 42mm came in grey boxes so are circa 1980s?

I also have a Photar 50mm f=2.8 M39 thread with no serial or catalogue number.

My 1987 Leitz catalogue lists the Photar 50mm as f=4.

I bought these because of my Leitz microscope sales background and continuing interest in macro and micro work.

When working for Leica Microscopy in Sydney I sold 2 sets of Photars in 20 years , 1, for Geology on an Aristphot, M=39 mount

The other set also for an Aristophot for photographing brain sections in Pathology, 

Sales numbers were probably small and I know micro objectives were produced in batches. eg 100 x1.4 Plan Apochromat was made in one batch per year.

Happy hunting.

Philip

[thomas_schertel]

Mr. Claus Walter sent me some informations to the Summar and allowed me, to post them here:

"Soeben ist mir im Leica-Forum aufgefallen, daß es ein Thema rund um ein Summar 120 gibt. Da kann ich etwas dazu beitragen. Es ist bis 9x12 verwendbar, nicht nur im Nahbereich.

Anbei ein paar Seiten aus einem Katalog. Die Objektive gab es am Anfang nur im Messing, so ab 1920 nur noch in schwarz."

My translation: I have seen in the forum, that there is a theme dealing with the Summar 120. I can contribute something. It is useable um to 9 x 12, not only for close focus. Attached are some pages of the catalogue. The frist lenses in the beginnig were in brass, since 1920 in black.

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yours sincerely
Thomas

[willeica]

11 minutes ago, thomas_schertel said:

Mr. Claus Walter sent me some informations to the Summar and allowed me, to post them here:

"Soeben ist mir im Leica-Forum aufgefallen, daß es ein Thema rund um ein Summar 120 gibt. Da kann ich etwas dazu beitragen. Es ist bis 9x12 verwendbar, nicht nur im Nahbereich.

Anbei ein paar Seiten aus einem Katalog. Die Objektive gab es am Anfang nur im Messing, so ab 1920 nur noch in schwarz."

My translation: I have seen in the forum, that there is a theme dealing with the Summar 120. I can contribute something. It is useable um to 9 x 12, not only for close focus. Attached are some pages of the catalogue. The frist lenses in the beginnig were in brass, since 1920 in black.

Thanks Thomas. This is excellent and it confirms in one document what I found in various publications about the brass models, the use for normal as well as macro photography, the range of lenses and the Klapp and Moment cameras as well as other aspects. I have seen one article which places the origins of this lens as far back as 1900, but it certainly was available in 1905 as one writer noted. I have some material in English covering more or less what you have posted above, but not as nicely scanned. I have already shared this with Paul (pgk) and I will be sending it to Dunk tonight. I am happy to share with any other member who sends me a PM.

William

[pgk]

24 minutes ago, thomas_schertel said:

I have seen in the forum, that there is a theme dealing with the Summar 120. I can contribute something. It is useable um to 9 x 12, not only for close focus.

Thanks Thomas.

This makes perfect sense. If, as William says, it was a ~1900 design then it was probably using the relatively new, higher refractive index Jena glasses and its performance was probably quite good at infinity, for that time. It has the reputation on the Large Format Photography Forum of being fairly mediocre, but then its a 120 year old design and as such can't compete with more modern designs. It also makes sense that it was intended for 9 x 12cm format and that its close range performance and increased image circle, especially stopped down, at closer distances made it usable as a macro/copying lens for an extended period of time on 5" x 4" format film. It certainly does have excellent central performance even today, although is of lower contrast than modern lenses due to the lack of coating.

[Ambro51]

This site has a good deal of info on the Aristophot system and related Summar lens.  http://www.glennview.com/copy.htm

Edited April 25, 2020 by Ambro51

[pgk]

I picked up a Reprovit Stand (only) for, would you believe, £5, yes £5. It is still in use for copying artworks. Sash window type weights make it easy to use. The electrics have been removed (dangerously rotten) and so it is only the stand itself which is still used.

[luigi bertolotti]

As a side comment on Leitz Micro/Macro lenses... time to time I'm tempted to buy a Photar 50...  the lens in itself can be found at reasonable prices... but the bellows adapter at about the same cost...🙄

Edited April 25, 2020 by luigi bertolotti

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[Ambro51]

The Aristophot itself.  Essentially, a 4x5 Camera with no movements except a long focus draw.  I have the shutter and an 80mm Summar (but not the “rest”).  The Aristophot not only lacked movements, but was designed with a true Leitz mentality to be complete plane and rock solid.  •••••• No Doubt would look amazing in a Lexus version :•>.    

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