Help with first (only) lens choice

[ktmrider2]

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And the 50f1.2 Nokton from Voightlander is blowing the socks off the competition and retails for $1059 if memory serves.  Put on a cheap 52mm lens hood from Amazon or Bay and save yourself $$$.  Herr Barnack did a great review of this lens for LHSA's Viewfinder.  His review comes up if you google 50f1.2 Nokton.

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[LichtUndDunkelheit]

Only one lens: Voigtländer Nokton 50mm f1.2 for sure.

[leicarox]

Thanks for all the replies and sorry for my late follow up!

Well, I went back and A/B'd the Lux to the Cron. My non-scientific findings.

1) Lux focus ring is smooth but quite stiff, and aperture ring is also looser than the Cron. I was told this would probably loosen up a bit

2) The Bokeh I saw from the Lux shots the next day was awesome 🙂

3) The Lux was definitely heavier, but maybe worth it for the bokeh

4) I almost think the Lux is the sharper of the two lenses, it just by a hair

5) Still cannot justify the APO, I'm just not there yet mentally 

I left with the Cron, just due to the weight,  but am now thinking I should actually move to the Lux!! The grass is always greener maybe?

I think it's just "weight vs image quality".

Cheers

 

[lct]

1 hour ago, leicarox said:

1) Lux focus ring is smooth but quite stiff [...]. I was told this would probably loosen up a bit

It won't most probably. Been there. I would not accept such a lens as is.

[Lelmer]

9 hours ago, leicarox said:

.........

I left with the Cron, just due to the weight,  but am now thinking I should actually move to the Lux!! The grass is always greener maybe?

I think it's just "weight vs image quality".

Cheers

 

 

The weight difference is not important (<100g) and you won't notice it in use

[mmx_2]

9 hours ago, leicarox said:

Thanks for all the replies and sorry for my late follow up!

Well, I went back and A/B'd the Lux to the Cron. My non-scientific findings.

1) Lux focus ring is smooth but quite stiff, and aperture ring is also looser than the Cron. I was told this would probably loosen up a bit

2) The Bokeh I saw from the Lux shots the next day was awesome 🙂

3) The Lux was definitely heavier, but maybe worth it for the bokeh

4) I almost think the Lux is the sharper of the two lenses, it just by a hair

5) Still cannot justify the APO, I'm just not there yet mentally 

I left with the Cron, just due to the weight,  but am now thinking I should actually move to the Lux!! The grass is always greener maybe?

I think it's just "weight vs image quality".

Cheers

 

I have the asph Lux 50 since years and I'm extremely happy with it. The bokeh is to die for honestly!! It's more than sharp enough for everything and the colors are just awesome. The whole lens just screams Leica (creamy smooth bokeh, sharp, beautiful color and a typical lux "glow"). I have had the non apo Summicron (v5) and yes, it is a bit sharper at f2 compared to the Lux, but honestly this does not make any real-life difference. The Summicron I had, had some issues with flare, maybe it was just my copy, but it did annoy me to the extent that I ended up selling the lens.

 

From my own experience:

Summilux ASPH 50:

Pros:

     *Best bokeh of any lens I have ever tried

     *Very sharp already wide open

     *Compact

     *Very, very flare resistant

     *Balances well on the M

Cons:

     *A little heavy

     *Focus ring a little bit stiff (when I compare to the super silk smooth Super Elmar 21 and 24, not really stiff)

Summicron 50 (non-Apo v5)

 Pros:

       *Extremely sharp at all apertures

       *Light-weight and very compact

       *Takes tiny E39 filters

Cons:

       *Bokeh not as nice as Summilux

       *Flare might be an issue

       *The built in hood is rather useless

       *No focus tab (I solved this by 3D-printing my own tab, you can find some models at Thingiverse)

 

If I where you I would go for the a nice used copy of a Lux sold from a reputable dealer with warranty. There are usally plenty of Summilux for sale :).

I have personally no experience with the Voigtländer 50 f1.2 but it is supposed to be very good, but please bear in mind that is not as compact as the lux and the difference between f1.2 and f1.4 is negligable. The Apo-Summicron is of course technically a real statement, but for me it's too expensive and I already have the lux with a love almost as much as my family ;).

 

[RayD28]

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13 hours ago, leicarox said:

Thanks for all the replies and sorry for my late follow up!

Well, I went back and A/B'd the Lux to the Cron. My non-scientific findings.

1) Lux focus ring is smooth but quite stiff, and aperture ring is also looser than the Cron. I was told this would probably loosen up a bit

2) The Bokeh I saw from the Lux shots the next day was awesome 🙂

3) The Lux was definitely heavier, but maybe worth it for the bokeh

4) I almost think the Lux is the sharper of the two lenses, it just by a hair

5) Still cannot justify the APO, I'm just not there yet mentally 

I left with the Cron, just due to the weight,  but am now thinking I should actually move to the Lux!! The grass is always greener maybe?

I think it's just "weight vs image quality".

Cheers

 

Looks like you went through a systematic decision making process to buy the Cron.  Now start saving for the Lux.  The solution to the "grass is always greener on the other side of the fence" is to buy the land on the other side of the fence.  Some might say you don't need two 50s, but you have already learned that there are desirable and compelling differences between 50s.  

[BKimelb1]

On 12/6/2019 at 3:20 AM, mmx_2 said:

I have the asph Lux 50 since years and I'm extremely happy with it. The bokeh is to die for honestly!! It's more than sharp enough for everything and the colors are just awesome. The whole lens just screams Leica (creamy smooth bokeh, sharp, beautiful color and a typical lux "glow"). I have had the non apo Summicron (v5) and yes, it is a bit sharper at f2 compared to the Lux, but honestly this does not make any real-life difference. The Summicron I had, had some issues with flare, maybe it was just my copy, but it did annoy me to the extent that I ended up selling the lens.

 

From my own experience:

Summilux ASPH 50:

Pros:

     *Best bokeh of any lens I have ever tried

     *Very sharp already wide open

     *Compact

     *Very, very flare resistant

     *Balances well on the M

Cons:

     *A little heavy

     *Focus ring a little bit stiff (when I compare to the super silk smooth Super Elmar 21 and 24, not really stiff)

Summicron 50 (non-Apo v5)

 Pros:

       *Extremely sharp at all apertures

       *Light-weight and very compact

       *Takes tiny E39 filters

Cons:

       *Bokeh not as nice as Summilux

       *Flare might be an issue

       *The built in hood is rather useless

       *No focus tab (I solved this by 3D-printing my own tab, you can find some models at Thingiverse)

 

If I where you I would go for the a nice used copy of a Lux sold from a reputable dealer with warranty. There are usally plenty of Summilux for sale :).

I have personally no experience with the Voigtländer 50 f1.2 but it is supposed to be very good, but please bear in mind that is not as compact as the lux and the difference between f1.2 and f1.4 is negligable. The Apo-Summicron is of course technically a real statement, but for me it's too expensive and I already have the lux with a love almost as much as my family ;).

 

I totally agree with mmx_2.  Used Lux 50 is the way to go with a warranty.

I bought a 50 Summicron as my first lens but shortly afterwards had buyers remorse. I shoot a lot of film at low light and missed the 1.4 aperture. Also the Bokeh. I ended up buying a 50 Summiliux shortly afterwards. My kit is a  35 Cron ASPH,  50 Cron,  50 Lux and 90 Cron APO. The 90 is my absolute favorite lens but if I only could choose one it would be the 50 Summilux. I barely use the 35.

[AceVentura1986]

50mm Summilux: frankly, I don’t see the point. It’s bigger and heavier than the Summicron and way more difficult to achieve proper focus at f/1.4 as any attempt to recompose will put the area of interest outside the plane of focus. At f/2, the Summicron is sharper. Further, with modern ISOs capabilities lenses faster than f/2 are, IMHO, superfluous. I love my 50mm Summicron and can’t speak highly enough about it. 
 

35mm Summicron: IMHO,  the first lens ought to be either a 35 or a 50. Can’t go wrong w either one. I mostly use a 50 Summicron but occasionally will use a 35 CV instead, depending on the situation. I think the 35 is more documentary whereas the 50 is more artistic, but that’s just me. 

YMMV 

Edited December 9, 2019 by AceVentura1986

[lct]

6 minutes ago, AceVentura1986 said:

50mm Summilux: frankly, I don’t see the point. It’s bigger and heavier than the Summicron and way more difficult to achieve proper focus at f/1.4 as any attempt to recompose will put the area of interest outside the plane of focus. At f/2, the Summicron is sharper. Further, with modern ISOs capabilities lenses faster than f/2 are, IMHO, superfluous. I love my 50mm Summicron and can’t speak highly enough about it. 

Sorry to disagree on this but my Summilux 50/1.4 asph is sharper at f/2 than both my Summicron 50/2 v4 & v5, especially at edges and corners. Also, aside from DoF, f/1.4 vs f/2 makes the same difference as 3200 vs 6400 iso i.e. negligible or essential depending on cameras and subject matters. As for field curvature it can be a problem on both lenses, although i agree it is more difficult to deal with at f/1.4, but the Summicron has more focus shift and those are only rangefinder problems anyway. I know accessory EVFs can be painful tu use with M cameras but nailing focus with both lenses is not an issue with them, when focusing at working aperture at least.

[leicarox]

Thanks all,

Ok, quick summary of my newbie experience with the 50 Cron and Lux. (Should I be using the full names?)

50 Cron: Lighter. Faster to focus because the ring is looser. Images seem a bit softer overall, or maybe I was unable to focus this lens very well. Less bokeh, not as smooth, but not bad. More purple fringing than the Lux which only did it in extreme cases.

50 Lux: Heavy (but is it too heavy?). Tight but smooth focus ring. I'm assuming it's supposed to be fairly tight due to the floating elements. Shallow DOF, very sharp lens when I can get it to focus at the right depth. Seemed sharper at further distances too compared to the Cron, even wide open. I don't think I'd want to ever go heavier than this lens, especially on vacation or roaming around. Bokeh was nicer, small point sources did look like stretched stoplights though when stopped down. Easier for me to get in focus at F3.4, and razor sharp here. 

I also did something bad, I picked up a 28 Lux (new, silver) because I'm trying to get in on stuff before the tariff increases hit everything. Maybe that's not what I should be doing though. For this lens, it had purple fringing like crazy opened up, and also at 2.0. Shots were sharp, but for some reason lacked the magic of the Lux and the retro vibe of the Cron. I think it's also not going to work for a few more reasons. It's a bit heavy 🙂and I doubt I would really want to lug this around everyday on vacation. It also blocks the entire bottom right half of the viewfinder. Worse for me, I have to move my eye around behind the viewfinder a bunch to see the frame lines. I'm thinking 50 and 35 are probably the sweet spot for the rangefinder unless I'm taking shots with a 28 or wider and don't care so much about the content or composition towards the edges of the frame. Any experiences/thoughts welcome here? As for the 28, unless there's really a compelling reason to have the 1.4, I'm guessing the 2.0 or 2.8 might be a better choice. Does one really need 1.4 in a 28?? 

As for an EVF to get around the viewfinder issue, I don't think I'm ready to go that route. Part of the goal for me was to have a small(ish) camera so I could carry it around all day, and I feel the EVF is just going to be a fragile awkward appendage. If I do end up getting the EVF down the road, it would open up 24 and wider lenses as well. And I don't know enough yet about this stuff 🙂 . All I know is that 28 seems to be wide enough to capture buildings and more interior judging from my phone pics from trips.

But back to the 50..  I like things about each. I could go "all in" on the APO in order to get image quality, the smaller size, and probably easier focusing, but I don't know if I'd be gaining that much over the Lux, and it would take away from buying a second or third lens. I'm sure even the regular Cron is a far better lens than I'm a photographer, and maybe I wasn't doing a good job on focusing since it was the first lens I tested and I'm new to rangefinders. It's definitely the least expensive of the group, but the Lux is only around $1k more. Decisions.. 

 As a final though, I could just cut the difference and get a 35, but the 50 is what was recommended to me to start with?? I'm guessing the 50 will make me develop more artistically and the 28 or 35 would be more for everyday and capture scenes, sites, and memories.As far as what I photo, it will be a mishmash, not in any particular order: street scenes, buildings, rolling hills, neat trees, storefronts, inside of neat churches and other architecture, nature hikes, streams, flowers, friends and family, pets, city skyline views, you name it. As far as portraits, it would be more of my wife or maybe candid shots of friends and family. 

A question for all of you experts. Do the Lux and Cron have the same DOF when they are at the same aperture? Or will the Lux always have a shallower DOF? As a newbie, I think getting shots that are in focus will be fairly important while I'm learning, and much more important than super shallow DOF.

Ugh, and another. Is it worth having the M9 when I have the 240? I can swap that M9 out for a lens probably. I have always wanted an M9 however and have read many threads on the CCD colors, etc, unless it's hogwash.

And one final question: Is there any advantage shooting the Lux stopped down at say 5.6 for outdoor walkabouts over just having a slower lens? So much for me to learn.

Sorry for rambling and being all over the map, it's a hard decision and a lot of $ to throw down. I just am hoping to get it right the first time.

Thanks!

 

 

 

Edited December 9, 2019 by leicarox

[a.noctilux]

😉

Why not try to see and appreciate the magic of Summaron 28mm ?

Anyway have fun with whatever your choice which can be adapted over time and use.

[evikne]

1 hour ago, leicarox said:

A question for all of you experts. Do the Lux and Cron have the same DOF when they are at the same aperture? Or will the Lux always have a shallower DOF? As a newbie, I think getting shots that are in focus will be fairly important while I'm learning, and much more important than super shallow DOF.

At the same aperture the DOF should be the same, regardless of the maximum aperture of the lens. Just one little thing to remember: Most lenses have the roundest aperture (iris diaphragm) when fully open. In some cases, when you have an out-of-focus light source in the background, the shape of this aperture will appear in the pictures as more or less round "bokeh balls". Most people think rounder is nicer. So while a Summicron will have a perfectly round aperture at f/2.0, a Summilux stopped down to f/2.0 will have a slightly more jagged aperture (and even more so at f/2.8).

In addition to the saved money, size and weight, this is another little advantage with a slower lens if you don't need the extra f-stop.

[jaapv]

Please use full names Using the abbreviations is so wannabe expert. Anyway, at this point spending more money on a faster lens is only worth it if you need the speed/narrow DOF. Similar for the APO. Only get it if you have the technical ability to use thevrctra quality- and the need. In other words: Get a Summicron and be happy. 

[M11 for me]

Re weight: Note that the black 50mm Summilux is 100g lighter than silver one. Sorry if that was mentioned above already. Did not read full text. I do not know if you tested the black or silver one either.

[oka]

54 minutes ago, evikne said:

At the same aperture the DOF should be the same, regardless of the maximum aperture of the lens. Just one little thing to remember: Most lenses have the roundest aperture (iris diaphragm) when fully open. In some cases, when you have an out-of-focus light source in the background, the shape of this aperture will appear in the pictures as more or less round "bokeh balls". Most people think rounder is nicer. So while a Summicron will have a perfectly round aperture at f/2.0, a Summilux stopped down to f/2.0 will have a slightly more jagged aperture (and even more so at f/2.8).

In addition to the saved money, size and weight, this is another little advantage with a slower lens if you don't need the extra f-stop.

...DOF is bit different between the lenses. Example Noctilux50, Summilux50 and APO-Summicron50 has slightly different "DOF" at f2.

[evikne]

2 minutes ago, oka said:

...DOF is bit different between the lenses. Example Noctilux50, Summilux50 and APO-Summicron50 has slightly different "DOF" at f2.

The DOF (depth of field) should be the same. The bokeh (quality of the out-of-focus areas) may be different. 

[IkarusJohn]

On 11/30/2019 at 11:19 AM, spydrxx said:

Well, you already have a 50 in the Safari, so why not just use it for 6 months or so and see how you like it as well as take the time to decide what to augment it with. There's no compelling reason to grab a bunch of lenses at the outset when you don't know what best suits your needs.

I agree.

You've had cameras based on 28mm and 35mm - the 50mm is quite different and will provide you with inspiration and a challenge.  I haven't had a 50mm Summicron, so I can't comment on it (I have the APO version).  Others like it very much.  The finish isn't important - silver, green, red, black - they all work the same.  If you're worried about the premium you might have paid, take it back.  It is important to me to feel comfortable with my gear.  Some really like the green.

Speaking purely for myself, the 35 Summicron ASPH was my first lens, and I thought it would be my only lens on my M9.  I soon found the field of view boring (apologies to the 35mm lovers).  I loved my 50 Summilux ASPH from the moment I got it - reasonably compact, and reasonably priced.  Mine is silver chrome (solid brass, so it is heavy) on a silver body, and looks very sharp - smooth bokeh.  I matched that with 28mm (first, a 28mm Summicron, then replaced with a 28 Summmilux & 29 Summaron-M).  The 28/50 combination is, in my view, the most flexible set up.  It is what I would settle on if I had to reduce my gear.

Be careful - accumulating lenses can become addictive, with no appreciable impact on your photography and a considerable adverse impact on your bank balance ...

It is fun, though.

Cheers
John

PS

On 12/6/2019 at 12:44 PM, lct said:

It won't most probably. Been there. I would not accept such a lens as is.

Mine did.  With the floating lens element, there was a stiff point in the focusing travel.  With use, it freed up - others report theirs haven't.  Mine is smooth as butter.

Quote

The DOF (depth of field) should be the same. The bokeh (quality of the out-of-focus areas) may be different. 

It is correct that depth of field should be the same for a given aperture (if the aperture is actually the same), but fall-off from plane of best focus to out of focus can vary wildly.  The discussion of the first SL Summicrons covered this - many said the Summicrons behave more like Summiluxes as they have a very defined plane of best focus and the fall off is quite sharp.  That can give "pop", but it can also be a little hard, compared to the roll-off in some older lenses.  I think Jono Slack describes this in his 35 Summicron-SL review.

Sorry for the add-on comments.  I'm late to the party.  My advice - keep what you have and use the hell out of them.  

Edited December 9, 2019 by IkarusJohn

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[lct]

38 minutes ago, evikne said:

The DOF (depth of field) should be the same.

Total DoF yes but its repartition in front of and behind the subject matter can be different. Here at the same aperture (f/2) the 75/1.4 has more DoF than the 75/2 behind the subject. Don't ask me how it works though.

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[jaapv]

Yes of course At this subject distance DOF is divided 1/3- 2/3 . At longer distances it goes to 1/2 - 1/2