Help on buying Leica M4-P / M6

[sblitz]

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Get the M4, not the M4-2 or P (cheaper versions of the M4, as inflation was ramping up and Leica needed another way to make the same camera but cheaper) or anything after . . . . It is built to last, tough, clock-work precision feel to it, nothing electric but the feeling when it is in your hands and you are taking pictures. Had an M6 but hated the flare, now you could jump to the MP or MA but they are a lot more money. Only reason to get an M6 IMHO is if you want TTL metering, and you might, nothing wrong with that. But there are always compromises in life as long as you have a budget. M4. 

[ktmrider2]

Since you do not want a in camera meter, I would get the M4P.  However, if the choice is between an M4 or M4P then the biggest factor in my opinion is the viewfinder not steel vs brass gears or the appearance of the camera.  The M4P was the first film M to have the paired frames of all later M cameras.  The M4 has the 35/135 paired together and the 135 frame line is so small as to be hardly noticeable.  I am not a big fan of the paired frame lines which makes my favorite M an M2.  But it was not presented as a choice so I would go with my second favorite film M which is the original M4.

If you want a meter then the M6 is the obvious choice.  However, I have been using an M5 for the past couple years and although an odd size which lots of people dismiss, its viewfinder and metering system blows the M6 and subsequent M's out of the water.  

No Meter and clean finder-M4.  Meter and classic film size camera-M6.  Best meter and finder combo-M5.  No meter and six frame lines-M4P

[ThomasSmithDP]

Thank you sblitz and ktmrider2 for the information and your tips.

Yes, the M4 is the obvious choice for me. Now I will look for an M4 in the Market. What are the price-ranges for an M4? (in Euro)

[a.noctilux]

My grain of salt as decades long M4 user ( and  other M ) :

- M4 can be expensive to maintain, so M4 prices can double easily if recently CLA/repaired

my last M4's repairs had cost me 400 - 500€ in independent repairer, maybe more at Wetzlar

- so if possible buy one with recent CLA (with paper as I know that some self-maintained M4 can be more expensive to repair afterward)

- have fun to find one and enjoy this mechanical marvel which can break down without notice (I experienced that so many times ! )

 

[ktmrider2]

Also, the M4-2 has the same frame lines as the original M4 but the steel gears of the M4P.  It might be the cheapest M4 type available and is newer then the classic M4.  I believe it was only made in black chrome where the original M4 in black paint is 2.5 to 3 times the price of the chrome M4.

[espelt]

Everything has already been written about the differences between M4 and M6. A lot of philosophy, too. When buying a used camera, however, another point is really important: Where does the camera come from, who sells the camera? An M4 can be 50 years old, the last M6 are from 1998. That can (must not) make a difference. Depending on how they were used and treated. When I bought my first M, that was exactly what made the difference: I found a perfect M6. Maintained, freshly serviced and guaranteed by the dealer. She wasn't the cheapest offer. But it was the cheapest at that moment.
But it could also have been an M4. But it doesn't really matter which one you choose: I'm sure there'll come a second. It's like chips: Once you've started. . .

[plaidshirts]

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On 9/26/2019 at 1:34 AM, ThomasSmithDP said:

Thank you sblitz and ktmrider2 for the information and your tips.

Yes, the M4 is the obvious choice for me. Now I will look for an M4 in the Market. What are the price-ranges for an M4? (in Euro)

I'm not sure what the current market price is in Europe but over here they go for $800-1000.

I bought one in rough shape for $300 a few years ago and spent $200 on a CLA, so there are ways to get it cheaper if you're willing to put some time and effort into it.

[ktmrider2]

In the US, Tamarkin and Classic Camera Connection are both great Leica dealers offering a 30 day (I believe) return policy.  I know Tamarkin ships international.  And their appraisals of used gear are very accurate.  I know all used cameras from Tamarkin have been CLA'ed and rating is cosmetic only.  Ffordes in Great Britain is also a wonderful dealer as is Red Dot in London.

[Ouroboros]

All this debate about steel gears etc seems silly to me.  I am really tempted with a nice looking black chrome M4-P complete with all original packaging I have seen for sale and spent half an hour trying it with a roll of Delta 100 outside the shop yesterday. 

It does not feel appreciably different to my MP in use.

Given the fact the shop owner has offered me a very good trade-in deal on my old Yashica T5  (‘cult’ camera....really???  The T5 is a plastic 35mm 1990’s point and shoot that I bought new over 20 years ago for less than half of the trade in price I’ve been offered!).  

£500 plus my plastic T5 will get me a nice boxed, 1 previously owned M4-P and I could not give a toss if it has steel gears and was made in Canada.  

 

[a.noctilux]

43 minutes ago, Ouroboros said:

...

It does not feel appreciably different to my MP in use.

...

 

 

That is normal as so many practical people writes/says that the MP IS a modern iteration of M4-P with a built-in meter.

(Not really true as the viewfinder of the more modern M-A/MP is so much brighter and contrastier).

 

As user of those M4x and M-A/MP/etc. , I have of course  same feeling as you.

Steel or brass components however can make differences when the camera is new.

After a while of using, things become smoother or not ( 😉 in my M-A not the case or maybe I must use them much more, maybe with Leicavit or Motor-M ?).

[sprouty115]

On 9/24/2019 at 3:16 AM, 250swb said:

In any other reality except Leicaworld people would chose hardened steel gears inside their gearbox and not soft brass, but Leicaworld is run on myths and folklore about the last CLA and how the insides of their camera now 'operate smooth as butter'...

 

 

 

 

 

 

Solid advice.

And to as if to prove the point regarding gear material - look for reviews on Bronica med-format cameras.  Specific early models are less expensive and less desirable due to their "soft brass gears".  Later models had - you guessed it - steel gears.

[jaapv]

Brass-geared Leicas have proven to have a lifespans of fifty years or more. What is this about?    
It is a non-argument. It is the quality of the machining that counts. 

[Rob L]

My M6, a very late .85 non TTL with almost no use (not even broken in) is as smooth as any M2 or 3 that I've had, or my current M4, which is mint and had a fairly recent CLA.

[sblitz]

On 2/25/2020 at 7:16 AM, jaapv said:

Brass-geared Leicas have proven to have a lifespans of fifty years or more. What is this about?    
It is a non-argument. It is the quality of the machining that counts. 

Brass doesn't rust (why it was the metal of choice on ships in the old days) but steel works with auto-winders. There you have the difference!!!!! 🙂

 

As for the post-M4 models, starting somewhere in the M4-P line and continuing until the M7, the condenser was changed and the viewfinder was very vulnerable to flare (why I got rid of my M6). I think the very late M6 models were corrected, but not completely sure. MP is fine in that regard.

 

[ianman]

How times have changed... http://greenspun.com/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg.tcl?msg_id=008hSZ 🙂 I recognise a name or two!

[Herr Barnack]

@ThomasSmithDP -

I would recommend the M4-P.  It has the same frame line set as the M6 (28mm to 135mm), has no internal meter to need repairs and is a rock solid M camera that is very dependable.  The M4-P was indeed made in Canada. This is only an issue for some M camera collectors; it has no bearing on the quality of the camera's build or its performance and reliability. 

The black chrome M4-P is visually low key and understated; it is not as pretty as a black paint M camera but there's a reason for the black chrome - the M4-P was built with the working press photographer in mind, most of whom prefer their cameras to have a more low profile appearance.  The chrome M4-P is a beautiful camera in its own way and the durability of the chrome finish is well known.  It all comes down to which is more appealing to your eye.  I have the black chrome version and am hoping to one day add a chrome M4-P to my kit. 

To conclude, let me say that every Leica connoisseur has their own favorite model(s) of M camera; as for me, I cannot see a downside to the M4-P. 

 

[james.liam]

On 2/26/2020 at 7:51 AM, sblitz said:

🙂As for the post-M4 models, starting somewhere in the M4-P line and continuing until the M7, the condenser was changed and the viewfinder was very vulnerable to flare (why I got rid of my M6). I think the very late M6 models were corrected, but not completely sure. MP is fine in that regard.

 

Adding MP-optics to the VF is no big deal. Did so on my M6 0.85 Classic. Problem solved.

[sblitz]

On 3/7/2020 at 10:41 PM, james.liam said:

Adding MP-optics to the VF is no big deal. Did so on my M6 0.85 Classic. Problem solved.

Yes indeed ...... 

[Guest]

Am 23.9.2019 um 13:32 schrieb ThomasSmithDP:

...

I prefer the M6. You can concentrate on a single piece of technology in your hand and don't have an additional light meter dangling from your neck.
With the M6 I always came to the photo much faster than with the M3 or M4, whether used with an external light meter or the MR-4 attached, which is very difficult to read with its tiny scale, especially at dusk.
In addition the M6 is available in much younger versions than its predecessors.

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Hallo,

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[AndreasG]

I am in the lucky situation to own both cameras - M4-P and M6, they are still now, and this is 30 years after I bought them, great and reliable cameras. But I need to admit that @mnutzer above is right, with the built in light meter of the M6 you are faster compared with the handling of the MR-4 Leicameter or another external light meter.