New M8 Firmware Preview 27/07/07!!! Laundry list

[Jamie Roberts]

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Yes, it's a great solution.... when you just don't have to control DOF!!

 

I understand your hirony, but I really need this improvement...

 

It's just boring sometimes those little or bigger points....

 

cheers....

maurizio

 

MAURIZIO BEUCCI.com - Official web site

 

Hi Maurizio--

 

I'm actually surprised at how easy it is to clean the M8 sensor compared with my Canons. I change lenses all the time, and shoot outside, etc... and I've only used a Giotto large rocket blower to clean it up.

 

So far it's worked every time, and I honestly don't have to do it that often!

 

With the Canons, only a Sensor Brush or wet cleaning would do the trick. I wonder why?

[ArtZ]

Guys, you confuse quality and “love”. We all love our M8s but the fact that we love them doesn’t make them high quality products. I love very much my brother… and he’s in a wheel chair.

 

I’ve bought quite a lot of bodies and lenses (other brands) and the first time I had to ask for a replacement it was for my M8. And I’m not the only one here... Mercedes, BMW, Apple, etc. doesn’t replace their products as Leica seems to do. And if they do it so easily is just because they know they’re faulty. I remember Intel’s first Pentium 90MHz which couldn’t calculate properly. All processors were replaced and it cost a lot in terms of money and credibility. I wouldn’t buy a car if regularly I must send it to the factory to be mended.

 

When you say Leica has a good quality service, I disagree. They’re very nice people, indeed. But how much do cost them all the replacements, fixing, etc? A good quality service will make Leica spend less money/time and customers be happier.

 

Leica is spending lots of money and time in replacements, repairs, adjustments, etc. for repairing a product line, which means there’s a problem with quality.

 

You may have a problem with a particular product (like you had with your BMW X5 -everybody here could give us exemples like this concerning different products) but if that problem happens with many products of the product line… there’s obviously a quality problem.

 

I'm sure if you're honest with yourselves, you know I'm right.

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[tom0511]

More then likely that is done during assembly but whoever is doing the assembly just doesn't get it and some go out misalligned.

 

too many go out misalligned. Either their tollerances are too wide or the check isnt done in a proper way. Hey, A hobby-photographer like me can check the allignment in 2 minutes with a ruler, so I guess Leica should be able to check it as well.

It should be in their budget for a 50/1.4asph.

[Jamie Roberts]

Manuel--

 

I honestly don't know what you're talking about. My Leica DMR is very high-quality indeed; I'm pretty sure no-one else has ever brought to market a successful interchangeable 35mm digital back with anything like the success that Leica has. To me, this speaks volumes about Leica quality.

 

The DMR has been neither replaced nor repaired (well, except for when I dropped it!) Yes, it took them too long for firmware tweaks, but I for one forgive them that because the DMR kicks butt in terms of image quality (and of course, the ability to use, unmodified, a host of fabulous R lenses). And even though a lot of people didn't believe it, now there is a new firmware out!

 

Now, let's take the M8. I can be persuaded that there are too many going out with misaligned rangefinders. And it's certainly true the M8 launch had it's share of knocking and pinging. But every *computerized* "first-of-its-kind" product I've had (except the DMR) has had those problems. There are no other digital rangefinders out there save the Epson, and it's not in the same league as the M8 (or so people who own both tell me).

 

Also, leaving aside what is apparently a run of backfocussing RFs (because I'm sure they've fixed that by now), the fact that many people bolt on 30 year old lenses that have never been CLA'd in all that time and expect to just be OK... well, all I can say is thank heaven you can't do that with your other cameras (well, you can with the DMR!).

 

So I'm completely ok with cutting Leica some slack on the M8. Is it inherently flawed? Not to me; I don't expect AWB to work well in tricky light. They fixed their real, computational bugs almost immediately, gave everyone a loyalty bonus, and are passionate about high quality (and, truth to tell, communication with their clients too, IMO).

 

I use the M8 professionally and have done so since I got it in November. I don't have another M8 backup (though of course I have backups--everything *can* fail!). I will get one someday soon, though.

 

So given the user experience and handling and the image quality (yes, even taking into account the IR issues) on the whole, it's fair to me to say the M8 is a high-quality camera.

 

That doesn't mean it's perfect, or that can't be improved or tweaked; that doesn't mean some people won't have mechanical or electronic problems in something this complex.

 

So I'm looking forward to seeing what changes Leica has made in the firmware (to get back on topic).

[Guest guy_mancuso]

Manuel i have owned every rocket ship there is and quality is not just a repair but when a body goes down and a replacement made i call that quality. i NEED to be taken care of in many ways from my camera company. Yes repairs have been slow and there have been some issues and mostly because there jammed up to there ears with work . But quality comes to me in images and the M8 produces some of the best around. My 40 k investment is banking on that, if it did not produce it would be gone. i only love something if it makes my life good . Otherwise it is just another piece of junk i need to get rid off. Yes i do love leica's and the folks that help run the company but they know very well if it is not working for me as a pro than i will move on. seriously i will jump on another system in a heart beat that can do a better job at this, no one fills that bill overall in my opinion. No one has the glass and no one has the Kodak sensor that i like. I'm not going anywhere and as long as Leica produces great camera's and systems i will stay. But don't even go there with me on them not being perfect, there is also no one else that is perfect either. if it is electronic than that is part of life. Look at the Ipods that go down , the Pc's that crash and burn and the list goes on. And yes the BMW's that need a new engine after a week. Not to excuse putting out a quality product but there are NO perfect companies and that is just the way it is. The trick is to respond and try to make it better but having handcuffs on makes that difficult

[sdai]

My experience with European products is that they'll all give you some surprises ... good or bad, be it a car or camera ... I've been one of the noise makers as you all know but had my view greatly changed since I got my hands on the M8.

 

I've been posting very negative comments as well ... some wacko would register under a different alias just to take a cheap shot at me because of that (I don't respond to people who has less than 100 posts anyways ) ... but as Mao from China once said, the more you love it, the more you'll hate it. I guess I'll bash it again some day when it goes down. But this lust over a Leica has never changed - since 1982.

 

Japanese products may be flawless, but in most cases they're also lifeless - to say more precisely, without an attitude or personality.

 

It would be great if future Leicas are designed in Wetzlar/Solms but built in Japan/China.

[Mauribix]

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Hi Maurizio--

 

I'm actually surprised at how easy it is to clean the M8 sensor compared with my Canons. I change lenses all the time, and shoot outside, etc... and I've only used a Giotto large rocket blower to clean it up.

 

So far it's worked every time, and I honestly don't have to do it that often!

 

With the Canons, only a Sensor Brush or wet cleaning would do the trick. I wonder why?

 

Hi Jamie, what's the Giotto/Caravaggio/Leonardo's stuff like?

 

May you post a picture?

I couldn't find it here in Italy (so surprised because of it's Italian roots.... )

I often shoot architecture/landscapes, and the dust problem it's always on the corner to me..

Prior to my M8 I had some Oly DSLRs, and that was not really their problem...

I know well the differences betweeen the wave filter and that Nikon's software artifacts..

I know (and prefer it because of sharpening) that we can't have the filter on M8, but couldn't you love a switcheable software correction for dust?

I found it very useful in humidity conditions (i.e. some falls, or when pouring...)when you notice dust, but you're afraid to open the camera.... and as we know, this is not really a waterproof camera...

 

cheers

 

maurizio

MAURIZIO BEUCCI.com - Official web site

[Jamie Roberts]

Hi Jamie, what's the Giotto/Caravaggio/Leonardo's stuff like?

 

May you post a picture?

I couldn't find it here in Italy (so surprised because of it's Italian roots.... )

I often shoot architecture/landscapes, and the dust problem it's always on the corner to me..

{snipped}

 

Maurizio, here is a link to the thing I mean...(I love the Italian joke, too, BTW!)

 

Giottos Rocket Air Blower Review

 

There are newer, more powerful ones available too.

 

As for waterproofing and humidity, well, of course I wish the M8 was a little more water resistant, though in truth I've had it out in the rain and it's been fine! YMMV, of course

[ArtZ]

Jamie, Guy,

 

I agree with what you say but I think your answers don’t respond really to my point.

 

I will also tell you I’m using (since I got the IR/UV filters –still waiting for the John Milich’s WATE adapter which should arrive in the next days) more the M8 than any of my other cameras because I love it. I’m very happy (and lucky) with my second body: no venetian blind, no front/back focus (even with the APO SUMMICRON ASPH 90mm /f:2), no weird line on the sensor, no problems reading cards (except the format problem I pointed out in another thread) and even AWB works pretty well (occasionally I get one or two shoots wrong every 25)!

 

First, one thing is brand quality (Leica is leading and a world famous brand concerning quality like BMW, Toyota, Sony, Cartier and many, many others) BUT even a high top quality brand can make mistakes and make a product which doesn’t correspond to the quality standards of that brand. I think this is the case with the M8.

 

Second, in photography there’re not really professional products and prosumer/consumer products. You can get a very good shot even with a very cheap camera. Photography is basically the art of stopping the moment and artistic creativity should be more important than the equipment you use. You can give a “professional” camera to someone who has no “eye” and he/she will make very bad pictures.

 

If professionals (we) choose this kind of sophisticated equipment (instead of P&S cameras) is for two reasons: reliability and the options given to improve our artistic creativity.

 

I have nothing to say concerning the artistic creativity offered by the M8 and Leica, but concerning reliability I think Leica is really not offering us that. As a professional you cannot buy an M8 to work with and you realize, for instance, that you must send it (with your lenses) back to Solms to calibrate it. Or after working a whole day for a client, you realize that your pictures are useless because there’s a line somewhere in the image or you cannot read de SD card in your computer (just to give a couple of examples which are being discussed here recently).

 

When Leica made the specifications for the M8 these things were not included as the standard capabilities of our M8s. I would say Leica never wanted the M8 behave like this.

 

For me this is a serious quality issue. Before putting in the market the M8, Leica’s Quality Assurance department should have found out these problems and correct them. I would say even more… Leica’s Quality Assurance department should detect these problems before building the camera if their quality procedures were good.

 

As I said in my previous post, the whole thing with quality is not to do again the work you have done previously.

 

And if I’m telling you all this about quality is because I’m an engineer and I’ve worked for many years as Director of Quality Assurance R&D Europe for a huge American computer company (I rather prefer not to say the name for publicity purposes).

[marknorton]

ArtZ, you're bordering on being a troll and it's pointless comparing your "huge American computer company" with Leica.

 

First, size. Let's say your "huge" company is Hewlett Packard or Dell or IBM or Microsoft, these companies are several orders of magnitude bigger than Leica. Leica's annual revenue is something like €150m, IBM makes that in a few hours.

 

Second, background. Leica's background is as a near-bankrupt optics and mechanics company which is getting into electronics, computing and software. How would your "huge American computer company" fare if it was faced with getting into top quality lens design and manufacture on the same sort of budget Leica has available? They wouldn't. They'd eat their way through the budget with sharp-suited MBAs who are keener on compiling reports than doing the real work.

 

Third, talking of budget, my estimation is that Leica spent $20m bringing the M8 to market. Canon spent more than that on their booth for the 8 or so days at Photokina last year.

 

All in all, Leica have done a great job in bringing the M8 to market and I'm quite sure that "Job One" as you probably like to call it is tracking the problems and understanding what's causing them. The M8 is a learning curve for Leica and you're either happy to be part of it or you are not.

 

What I do know is that the M8 is a product of talented people who are committed to what they do. I had the pleasure of meeting Otto Domes last year and his sense of pride in what had been achieved was palpable. Guy has had the privilege of getting even closer to "Leica Central" on his recent trip.

 

So, please give us a break. We know that things could be better and we know they will get better.

[sdai]

Second, background. Leica's background is as a near-bankrupt optics and mechanics company which is getting into electronics, computing and software.

 

Thanks a lot for mentioning about it, Mark ... this has just reminded me of how Nokia has successfully transformed from a lumber mill into the world's top notch cell phone maker, Leica should have learned a lot from it.

[ArtZ]

ArtZ, you're bordering on being a troll and it's pointless comparing your "huge American computer company" with Leica.

 

First, size. Let's say your "huge" company is Hewlett Packard or Dell or IBM or Microsoft, these companies are several orders of magnitude bigger than Leica. Leica's annual revenue is something like €150m, IBM makes that in a few hours.

 

Second, background. Leica's background is as a near-bankrupt optics and mechanics company which is getting into electronics, computing and software. How would your "huge American computer company" fare if it was faced with getting into top quality lens design and manufacture on the same sort of budget Leica has available? They wouldn't. They'd eat their way through the budget with sharp-suited MBAs who are keener on compiling reports than doing the real work.

 

Third, talking of budget, my estimation is that Leica spent $20m bringing the M8 to market. Canon spent more than that on their booth for the 8 or so days at Photokina last year.

 

All in all, Leica have done a great job in bringing the M8 to market and I'm quite sure that "Job One" as you probably like to call it is tracking the problems and understanding what's causing them. The M8 is a learning curve for Leica and you're either happy to be part of it or you are not.

 

What I do know is that the M8 is a product of talented people who are committed to what they do. I had the pleasure of meeting Otto Domes last year and his sense of pride in what had been achieved was palpable. Guy has had the privilege of getting even closer to "Leica Central" on his recent trip.

 

So, please give us a break. We know that things could be better and we know they will get better.

 

Funny answer... Marc, you're just saying Canon cameras are better quality than M8

 

It's funny to see how narrow minded and intolerant people can be.

 

As Michel Audiard (french movie director) wiould say "I don't talk to idiots, that educates them"

 

Cheers!

[marknorton]

I won't dignify your comments with a response other than to clarify that the Canon reference was to show that Leica have nothing like the budget of Canon but have produced a product which ranks equal or above theirs.

[Guest sirvine]

"As Michel Audiard (french movie director) wiould say 'I don't talk to idiots, that educates them'"

 

Hubris, arrogance, condescension...these are your values?

[ttriolo]

Guy, between you and Sean Reid, I am constantly watching for your emails. Keep it up and I hope to meet you, and Sean, some day. Maybe at an LHSA meeting.

I hope the 'venetian blinds' on automatic review goes away with the firmware update. That really is my only complaint. Saw it way too much when in Europe last month.

Steve W

For those of us contemplating an M8 purchase can you describe the venetian blind syndrome you have experience on review. Have heard several comments about it but not sure what it looks like.

[Kent10D]

For those of us contemplating an M8 purchase can you describe the venetian blind syndrome you have experience on review. Have heard several comments about it but not sure what it looks like.

 

It appears as a series of horizontal black and white stripes, sort of like venetian blinds, that appear on the display instead of the expected instant review of the picture you've just taken. It doesn't affect the data in any way, but it's an annoyance.

[carstenw]

It appears as a series of horizontal black and white stripes, sort of like venetian blinds, that appear on the display instead of the expected instant review of the picture you've just taken. It doesn't affect the data in any way, but it's an annoyance.

I have also seen red and black stripes.

[fefe]

I get the B&W stripes about once a week, it seems to happen when I take a shot just after powering the M8 up (or waking it up). It does take the shot correctly, but if you want to review the picture you have to press play. Honestly it is a minor annoyance and I never missed a shot because of it. It's something I really don't care if it ever gets fixed.

[DaveSee]

Jamie, Guy,

 

I agree with what you say but I think your answers don’t respond really to my point.

 

I will also tell you I’m using (since I got the IR/UV filters –still waiting for the John Milich’s WATE adapter which should arrive in the next days) more the M8 than any of my other cameras because I love it. I’m very happy (and lucky) with my second body: no venetian blind, no front/back focus (even with the APO SUMMICRON ASPH 90mm /f:2), no weird line on the sensor, no problems reading cards (except the format problem I pointed out in another thread) and even AWB works pretty well (occasionally I get one or two shoots wrong every 25)!

 

First, one thing is brand quality (Leica is leading and a world famous brand concerning quality like BMW, Toyota, Sony, Cartier and many, many others) BUT even a high top quality brand can make mistakes and make a product which doesn’t correspond to the quality standards of that brand. I think this is the case with the M8.

 

Second, in photography there’re not really professional products and prosumer/consumer products. You can get a very good shot even with a very cheap camera. Photography is basically the art of stopping the moment and artistic creativity should be more important than the equipment you use. You can give a “professional” camera to someone who has no “eye” and he/she will make very bad pictures.

 

If professionals (we) choose this kind of sophisticated equipment (instead of P&S cameras) is for two reasons: reliability and the options given to improve our artistic creativity.

 

I have nothing to say concerning the artistic creativity offered by the M8 and Leica, but concerning reliability I think Leica is really not offering us that. As a professional you cannot buy an M8 to work with and you realize, for instance, that you must send it (with your lenses) back to Solms to calibrate it. Or after working a whole day for a client, you realize that your pictures are useless because there’s a line somewhere in the image or you cannot read de SD card in your computer (just to give a couple of examples which are being discussed here recently).

 

When Leica made the specifications for the M8 these things were not included as the standard capabilities of our M8s. I would say Leica never wanted the M8 behave like this.

 

For me this is a serious quality issue. Before putting in the market the M8, Leica’s Quality Assurance department should have found out these problems and correct them. I would say even more… Leica’s Quality Assurance department should detect these problems before building the camera if their quality procedures were good.

 

As I said in my previous post, the whole thing with quality is not to do again the work you have done previously.

 

And if I’m telling you all this about quality is because I’m an engineer and I’ve worked for many years as Director of Quality Assurance R&D Europe for a huge American computer company (I rather prefer not to say the name for publicity purposes).

 

A professional does not put blame on her/his tools before a client. Quality work is YOUR responsibility, not your tool vendor. If you do not like the tool, discard it and use another best suited to your needs. A hard lesson(with costs) every craftsperson knows well. Actually, most reasonable folk understand this, with all purchased goods. Please note I used the adjective "reasonable".

 

You seem ignorant of this fact, and reasonably. For example: please name a currently supported digital rangefinder with M-mount lens capability for 15mm through 135mm focal lengths.

 

Sorry, didn't catch the name; would you repeat it?

 

rgds,

Dave

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Hallo,

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[Mauribix]

I get the B&W stripes about once a week, it seems to happen when I take a shot just after powering the M8 up (or waking it up). It does take the shot correctly, but if you want to review the picture you have to press play. Honestly it is a minor annoyance and I never missed a shot because of it. It's something I really don't care if it ever gets fixed.

 

I've had my Venetian Blinds coming last time I went to Venice (during this Winter)...

I guess it's the lagoon....

but I'm sure that it was suddenly after the firmware update that I did just before that trip in the Città delle gondole...

 

 

regards

Maurizio

MAURIZIO BEUCCI.com - Official web site