ianman Posted March 30, 2018 Share #541 Posted March 30, 2018 Advertisement (gone after registration) We got the change that was needed and that is enough for me. But I don't think calling for an apology is a matter of ego. Although I'm delighted with his change of position (regarding the elephant skin trade anyway), for me this is NOT enough. I would like to see from him a declaration in which he promises that this change is not just a facade and that even though the text and pictures have been removed from his website, he - and the Italian guy - will not use/buy/sell/trade elephant skin now or in future through any channel, public or otherwise. 3 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted March 30, 2018 Posted March 30, 2018 Hi ianman, Take a look here Luxury Camera Bags by Thorsten von Overgaard. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
schattenundlicht Posted March 30, 2018 Share #542 Posted March 30, 2018 [...] If this thread turns into a wider Thorsten-kicking, it will, of course, be moderated and closed. This thread has been exceptionally well moderated so far, imho. However it would be a shame, if due scepticism were deemed as a reason to close it down. That would rather amount to censorship. The discussion here has mostly been measured and would in no way warrant such a harsh measure. 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff S Posted March 30, 2018 Share #543 Posted March 30, 2018 Hi Jeff I'm rather embarrassed about that, perhaps it was cowardly to write to him directly rather than sounding off here. Anyway, Thorsten's new approach is most welcome Jono, you have nothing to be embarrassed about. It was the first post by Thorsten that should have been embarrassing to him, but clearly no contrition on his part. I, too, celebrate the outcome. But just that. Jeff 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul J Posted March 30, 2018 Share #544 Posted March 30, 2018 Although I'm delighted with his change of position (regarding the elephant skin trade anyway), for me this is NOT enough. I would like to see from him a declaration in which he promises that this change is not just a facade and that even though the text and pictures have been removed from his website, he - and the Italian guy - will not use/buy/sell/trade elephant skin now or in future through any channel, public or otherwise. I mean "enough" as a base measure. Pointing out there has been no apology after a miraculous overnight 180 degree turn around is not a case of ego. To say it is, I think, is missing the point. Without acknowledgement of wrong doing, without apology, with hubris rather than humility, it just comes across as turning a bad decision into an good opportunity and that is distasteful. I also agree that further measures need to be taken with both Thorsten and Matteo Perin to publicly state they will not be taking ANY orders of exotic skin in future. I can understand why people are so happy with the result, we have all spent a great deal of time in this thread. So, to see the turn around is a great relief and wonderful to see such change come about. It's fantastic to see the forum have an influence on external matters that mean a lot to the whole world. However. Conservation is some thing you do over your entire life and most do it quietly without the need for recognition and not off the back of a 90% discount. This is not the time to make an opportunity of a wrong decision. A very wise man told me once - stop listening to what people say, and watch what they do. 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
pedaes Posted March 30, 2018 Share #545 Posted March 30, 2018 '..he - and the Italian guy -...' I think you are setting unrealistic goals that it is not in Thorsten's gift to deliver even if he wanted to. They were fleeting collaborators.. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ynp Posted March 30, 2018 Share #546 Posted March 30, 2018 Hi, I have copied the thread from the first page to the last and plan to use it for a business school case. It’s one of the greatest examples of masterful spin and damage control I have seen. Just brilliant. And the change of attitude of the board members in a very short time was very educational. Bravo! Yevgeny Russia Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keith_W Posted March 30, 2018 Share #547 Posted March 30, 2018 Advertisement (gone after registration) I suggest to close this thread - points have been made, opinions expressed, and there is no more value in going back and forward other than a continuing expression of one camp seeing the move as very positive and the other being more doubtful and critical. I agree with this. The desired outcome has been reached, the point has been made. It's now turned into a Thorsten kicking fest where even his apology and donation was not enough to appease some people. It diminishes this forum, IMO. 4 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
UliWer Posted March 30, 2018 Share #548 Posted March 30, 2018 You mean the same Elephant hide bag, or just the other tacky ones? I am most definitely NOT just looking for a nice story! Well, it is the same photo of an ugly bag, together with a Leica camera, which was promoted as elephant hide on the website caused this thread. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
UliWer Posted March 30, 2018 Share #549 Posted March 30, 2018 ...to publicly state they will not be taking ANY orders of exotic skin in future..... Do you really think that taking orders themselves was or is their goal? Anyone may try to place an order at the websites promoting the things. Perhaps he will learn later whereto he should adress his money to pay the bill. This is just promotion. To lay the bait for a certain clientele. One of these promoting sites recently has gained some additional publicity by the association with elephants. It will stick. And some people who look for it will be shown the ways to get the „sexy stuff.“ Meanwhile the production goes on as usual - anbody who likes nice stories may believe it is done in Denmark. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff S Posted March 30, 2018 Share #550 Posted March 30, 2018 It's now turned into a Thorsten kicking fest where even his apology and donation was not enough to appease some people. It diminishes this forum, IMO. Must have missed the apology part. Freedom of expression enhances the forum IMO. It’s what prompted the change. Better yet if that change spread to other species as well. Jeff 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
M9reno Posted March 30, 2018 Share #551 Posted March 30, 2018 Do you really think that taking orders themselves was or is their goal? Anyone may try to place an order at the websites promoting the things. Perhaps he will learn later whereto he should adress his money to pay the bill. This is just promotion. To lay the bait for a certain clientele. One of these promoting sites recently has gained some additional publicity by the association with elephants. It will stick. And some people who look for it will be shown the ways to get the „sexy stuff.“ Meanwhile the production goes on as usual - anbody who likes nice stories may believe it is done in Denmark. I doubt that this experience has done Thorsten any publicity favours. He has very likely received blow-back from a number of sources, including Leica, as a result, maybe also Billingham, maybe also Leica Society. Those will have been embarrassing complaints to field. I don't see the upside in having that sort of negative attention thrown at you. Nor can I imagine how this could be a business-school-worthy case-study in damage control. As far as I know, Thorsten is a couple of thousand dollars poorer today than he was yesterday, has six fewer Twitter followers than last night, and is a proud sponsor of a baby elephant. He never apologised for calling us ignorant elephant-people (though I think only jaap's avatar was the target of the latter), but he did receive plentiful low-grade personal flak, from me included, throughout the thread, plus more sensitive stuff that was deleted, so I'm more than willing to forgive and forget. 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted March 30, 2018 Share #552 Posted March 30, 2018 Conservation is some thing you do over your entire life and most do it quietly without the need for recognition Amen! 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
pgk Posted March 30, 2018 Share #553 Posted March 30, 2018 My take here is that it takes quite an effort to admit being wrong - which is what TvO has done and done so publicly. Personally I would be equally delighted if a few more people who are in positions in which they 'do the wrong thing' and with far graver consequences, would do the same. TvO may turn out to be one of a few prepared to deal with a bad situation by altering his stance. Take it however you will, the end result is a positive one. Conservation should be an ethos we should all aspire to be inherent within our actions because it make good sense in the long term for us, our descendants and the planet in general. Currently we treat resources as though they were infinite and they are not. Despite some believing that technology will overcome our profligate ways, it almost certainly won't. Which leaves the future in our hands. Unfortunately, many don't even see the problem. Now at least one person's actions have changed - isn't that a positive thing? 5 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
M9reno Posted March 30, 2018 Share #554 Posted March 30, 2018 (edited) "Amen." I agree, but there is an argument for conspicuous conservation, too. If there are deep pockets tempted by bling and showmanship, shouldn't they be encouraged to compete visibly to preserve (rather than to destroy, e.g. by trophy hunting or toting pieces of dead animal)? We seem to live in a world where sadly the good works and sponsorship of the meek has not managed to extricate endangered species from their plight. But imagine the effect if Puff Daddy and Beyoncé were bragging about adopting baby elephants. ... Maybe the lesson from this thread is that we need somehow to make environmental conservation join the ranks of "Sexy Stuff"? Edited March 30, 2018 by M9reno 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Herr Barnack Posted March 30, 2018 Author Share #555 Posted March 30, 2018 (edited) I don’t see that at all. I was just posting last night to thank him for listening to the criticism heaped upon him by this, and other forums. That really was the point. I don’t see anyone hold him up as the next Bill Travers. I hope that he is entirely sincere in his actions over the last 24 hours, but if he isn’t, that’s for him to deal with. As I said, I am happy to take this all at face value. If this thread turns into a wider Thorsten-kicking, it will, of course, be moderated and closed. I am a bit wary of Thorsten's sudden change of heart, but I am also glad for it; it is not my place (or anyone else's) to say he is being disingenuous or manipulative with no proof of that. If he is engaging in subterfuge or deception on his change, sooner or later the truth will come out and the repercussions will be much more harsh than anything that has been said or done so far. When someone does a good thing, take it at face value - and trust but verify. Edited March 30, 2018 by Herr Barnack 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ECohen Posted March 30, 2018 Share #556 Posted March 30, 2018 (edited) Hi, I have copied the thread from the first page to the last and plan to use it for a business school case. It’s one of the greatest examples of masterful spin and damage control I have seen. Just brilliant. And the change of attitude of the board members in a very short time was very educational. Bravo! Yevgeny Russia Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Truth be told I unsubscribed to TvO well over a year ago ..... he/something just smelled like bad fish ....as does Eric Kim.I was not fooled by his apology or donation.....It feels much like Laura Ingraham's apology, financially motivated (sorry for the political reference)And has nothing to do with Elephants or conservation Phony is just that, phony ..... One day he was TO and the next day he was TvO .... Can "anybody" just do that? The answer is yes and the internet is a scary place. Much like the bathroom wall. Edited March 30, 2018 by ECohen 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
UliWer Posted March 30, 2018 Share #557 Posted March 30, 2018 I doubt that this experience has done Thorsten any publicity favours. ... The potential buyer of the „sexy stuff“ does not frequent this forum. „Publicity damage“ from the side of this forum is negligible compared to the publicity the promotion of the „sexy stuff“ recently got by internet clicks. The forum may be pleased by hearing what it likes. Elephant hide business with the same things which caused an uproar here goes on elsewhere with the same promotion as before - just with different means. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
IkarusJohn Posted March 30, 2018 Share #558 Posted March 30, 2018 Anyone tried getting a price directly from Matteo for a bag made from elephant skin? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
M9reno Posted March 30, 2018 Share #559 Posted March 30, 2018 "...with different means." Is this what you mean? https://www.instagram.com/p/BWxodrkDfEr/?taken-by=matteoperin23 "Special leather with cashmere" (... hmm, kind of begs the question what the special leather might be). Or... https://www.instagram.com/p/Ba1dzlFDFIc/?taken-by=matteoperin23 "Brown travel bag." Both are effectively Thorsten's 24hr Bag and are tagged #byappointmentonly. Your point seems sound, Uli. Maybe Thorsten, my fellow elephant foster-parent, will chime in again to provide further clarification. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
UliWer Posted March 30, 2018 Share #560 Posted March 30, 2018 (edited) However. Conservation is some thing you do over your entire life and most do it quietly without the need for recognition and not off the back of a 90% discount. This is not the time to make an opportunity of a wrong decision. A very wise man told me once - stop listening to what people say, and watch what they do. Well an entire life may be a very long time. Though sometimes there are wonders which happen in very short time. At 28 March 2018 - 19:57 someone could state that he didn’t consider people’s feeling and ignorance on this subject and that he has known all about these bags for more than a year, the history of the skin, the certification, the legality of different types of sources and that his video mentions that the skin is certified, and when one buys a bag with exotic skin, one gets a certificate for its origin. One day later at 21:36 he states that he won’t promote elephant products. History has shown that legal trade will cause an increase in illegal trade too. So, that he has renewed his stand on this produce. At the same time he is able to show certificates from the David Sheldrick Wildlife Trust and the WWF thanking him for his donations. Both institutions must be really quick in producing and sending their certificates - 25 hrs. and 39 mins. Of course it is impossible to assume that those certificates are older - he would have told us about them at 28 March - 19:57, wouldn't he. Anyway the Devid Sheldrick Wildlife Trust and the WWF are quicker than his own website. The renewed stand on this produce is not mentioned there. BTW and as an reply to m9reno: the website still has the "24hr bag". It is right that the photos of the thing are still promoted elsewhere - but I will not post any links. Wonderful stories for appropriate audiences. Edited March 30, 2018 by UliWer 3 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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