M 11 will be around in less than 4 years. The speculations and facts.

[mdemeyer]

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“It’s curtains for you all...”

{evil laugh}

[LocalHero1953]

8 hours ago, lct said:

Neither do I. Not sure that many people agree with me/us though. I gave up personally. I stick to my old Ms and buy elsewhere when i need a tool instead of a retro camera. 

It was the absence of a silent shutter that stopped me buying the M10 to replace my M240. That ship sailed when the CL came along, so the M11 would have to be pretty unusual to tempt me to spend my money on it rather than in the L-mount system. Leica may well view this with equanimity, and I wouldn't criticise them for it; the L-mount system is a far better place for modernity anyway. Why try to introduce stuff to a body that is inherently not suited to it?

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[lct]

1 hour ago, LocalHero1953 said:

It was the absence of a silent shutter that stopped me buying the M10 to replace my M240. That ship sailed when the CL came along, so the M11 would have to be pretty unusual to tempt me to spend my money on it rather than in the L-mount system. Leica may well view this with equanimity, and I wouldn't criticise them for it; the L-mount system is a far better place for modernity anyway. Why try to introduce stuff to a body that is inherently not suited to it?

M cameras are not inherently suited to digital either and the L mount is not made for them due to the lack of mechanical link with the rangefinder. I see no reason why M cameras would be unable to do what mere P&S can do anyway but as i said above, i gave up on that point. If Leica can understand that a rangefinder is not necessarily stuck in the last century so much the better for them but i don't hold my breath so i won't be surprised if the M11 proves to be another retro camera i'm not interested in anymore for owning several of them already. 

Edited November 29, 2018 by lct

[IkarusJohn]

As things stand,  the mechanical shutter on the M10-P and M10-D  is fast and quiet.  If you are happy with using the rangefinder, which is the heart of the M system, what’s the problem?  My understanding is that if  you like the optical rangefinder, an electronic shutter has nothing to add, but brings problems of its own.  

If you like using an EVF, then there is a problem inherent in live view and a mechanical shutter.  If that problem bothers you, the SL offers the choice of an electronic shutter for higher speeds.  I don’t see it as “retro” that Leica is playing to the strengths of both M and L mount cameras. I’m not that taken with rolling shutter and noise levels with electronic shutters.  

I guess that’s a reflection of the fact that I’m not trying to get shallow depths of field in bright sunlight. I do have filters, which is also a bit old fashioned for some.

[LocalHero1953]

13 minutes ago, IkarusJohn said:

As things stand,  the mechanical shutter on the M10-P and M10-D  is fast and quiet.  If you are happy with using the rangefinder, which is the heart of the M system, what’s the problem?  My understanding is that if  you like the optical rangefinder, an electronic shutter has nothing to add, but brings problems of its own.  

If you like using an EVF, then there is a problem inherent in live view and a mechanical shutter.  If that problem bothers you, the SL offers the choice of an electronic shutter for higher speeds.  I don’t see it as “retro” that Leica is playing to the strengths of both M and L mount cameras. I’m not that taken with rolling shutter and noise levels with electronic shutters.  

I guess that’s a reflection of the fact that I’m not trying to get shallow depths of field in bright sunlight. I do have filters, which is also a bit old fashioned for some.

There are recognised problems with the electronic shutter, as there are with the mechanical one. But it adds silence which the M10-P does not, quiet thought it is. There are circumstances (concerts/recitals, some plays) when silence is absolutely necessary. As I said, now the CL and SL meet that need for me. For many people an electronic shutter adds nothing; for me it adds something valuable. 

[jaapv]

1 hour ago, LocalHero1953 said:

 Why try to introduce stuff to a body that is inherently not suited to it?

To bring a valuable concept into the 21st century? I'm not convinced about the unsuitability.

[IkarusJohn]

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53 minutes ago, LocalHero1953 said:

There are recognised problems with the electronic shutter, as there are with the mechanical one. But it adds silence which the M10-P does not, quiet thought it is. There are circumstances (concerts/recitals, some plays) when silence is absolutely necessary. As I said, now the CL and SL meet that need for me. For many people an electronic shutter adds nothing; for me it adds something valuable. 

Having a silent shutter is a zero issue for me - I would never take a camera to a recital or play or concert.  Years ago, I decided that I wanted to experience life directly, not through a viewfinder.  There are things I photograph, and things I don’t.  Coming from an FM2 with a motordrive (that set up would wake the dead!), I find the M shutter very quiet - almost too quiet.

If I do want quiet, I have the choice oif both the TL2 and the SL.  But, for me,  it isn’t an issue, even with the Monochrom.  Presumably, if there’s demand, Leica will at some stage provide an electronic shutter option in an M, in addition to the mechanical shutter.  Would it need live view?  Seems a little odd ...

Edited November 29, 2018 by IkarusJohn

[IkarusJohn]

50 minutes ago, jaapv said:

To bring a valuable concept into the 21st century? I'm not convinced about the unsuitability.

I think it works rather well.

[LocalHero1953]

38 minutes ago, jaapv said:

To bring a valuable concept into the 21st century? I'm not convinced about the unsuitability.

Well, there's always real value for the C21 in an OVF, a full-frame sensor, small manual lenses and simple manual operation of the camera body. A rangefinder is only a means to an end, to be preserved until a better focusing tool comes along, but it and the M-mount are likely to be with us for a while yet. Of the oft-demanded modern features, only an electronic shutter seems easily doable: video may produce too much heat (??), an EVF would mean doing away with the valuable OVF, and the M-mount precludes any AF options. So yes, you could add an electronic shutter, but it wouldn't add the other features that most other modern cameras have.

[LocalHero1953]

4 minutes ago, IkarusJohn said:

Having a silent shutter is a zero issue for me - I would never take a camera to a recital or play or concert.  Years ago, I decided that I wanted to experience life directly, not through a viewfinder.  There are things I photograph, and things I don’t.  Coming from an FM2 with a motordrive (that set up would wake the dead!), I find the M shutter very quiet - almost too quiet.

If I do want quiet, I have the choice oif both the TL2 and the SL.  But, for me,  it isn’t an issue, even with the Monochrom.  Presumably, if there’s demand, Leica will at some stage provide an electronic shutter option in an M, in addition to the mechanical shutter.  Would it need live view?  Seems a little odd ...

OK, but I do it because I'm asked to do it - I've even occasionally been paid to do it.

I don't see why it needs live view. It just needs the mechanical shutter to stay open while the electronic one does its business.

[LocalHero1953]

4 minutes ago, IkarusJohn said:

I think it works rather well.

It does work well. It just doesn't do all that I want it to do. Which is why I haven't bought it. Only Leica can say if they're worried by that. Probably not, if I've bought the CL and SL.

[IkarusJohn]

18 minutes ago, LocalHero1953 said:

Well, there's always real value for the C21 in an OVF, a full-frame sensor, small manual lenses and simple manual operation of the camera body. A rangefinder is only a means to an end, to be preserved until a better focusing tool comes along, but it and the M-mount are likely to be with us for a while yet. Of the oft-demanded modern features, only an electronic shutter seems easily doable: video may produce too much heat (??), an EVF would mean doing away with the valuable OVF, and the M-mount precludes any AF options. So yes, you could add an electronic shutter, but it wouldn't add the other features that most other modern cameras have.

I do understand why you and others might need a silent shutter, and if it’s technically achievable, why not?  I can also understand that it could be unrelated to live view.  Presumably, Leica has its reasons.

The more general issue is that every time we propose something which goes away from the central design point of the M camera - M lenses and coupled rangefinder - as you have found, the L mount seems a better option.  Like having an EVF version of the M, the conclusion is that the L mount is better.

It’s fine for LCT and others to scorn the digital Ms as retro, but I don’t really think that’s really relevant of much.  Lots of camera manufaturers have drunk the retro koolaid, including Fuji and Sony, and it seems to work.  There’s nothing wrong with a design aesthetic.  What Lecia has done, though, is to persist with a design that works.  The M camera is still a coupled rangefinder that works well with M lenses - there isn’t really more to it than that, is there?  The M10 is the closest thing to the digital version of the original film M cameras - for that, I am very grateful.  I spend no time fretting over what it doesn’t have.

Edited November 29, 2018 by IkarusJohn

[jaeger]

after reading all these replies, it seems like not many people have experienced or understood the shutter lag over EVF, very sad.

Edited November 30, 2018 by jaeger

[jaapv]

Once one has learnt to capture action with a Digilux 2, any lag on a present-day EVF is utterly irrelevant

[IkarusJohn]

13 minutes ago, jaeger said:

after reading all these replies, it seems like not many people have experienced or understood the shutter lag over EVF, very sad.

Oh, I don’t think so.  Anyone who has used an M camera and a camera with live view and a shutter (SL, M with EVF) understands that when you take a picture, first the shutter has to close, the lens stop down (with  the SL), the image expose, then the shutter open again to re-establish live view.  This was all discussed at length over the Hasselblad X1D and its strange sounding shutter.

I may have missed it, but I haven’t read any complaints here over shutter lag with the CL, SL or TL2; the original T, yes. Drove me crazy.

[jaeger]

51 minutes ago, IkarusJohn said:

Oh, I don’t think so.  Anyone who has used an M camera and a camera with live view and a shutter (SL, M with EVF) understands that when you take a picture, first the shutter has to close, the lens stop down (with  the SL), the image expose, then the shutter open again to re-establish live view.  This was all discussed at length over the Hasselblad X1D and its strange sounding shutter.

I may have missed it, but I haven’t read any complaints here over shutter lag with the CL, SL or TL2; the original T, yes. Drove me crazy.

Thank goodness, I am going to add you as friend!  =D

The RF pair with mechanical shutter is perfect and no doubt.  I suggest adding electronic shutter mode for EVF or LV is one solution so that these hardcore RF users stay happy.

 

Edited November 30, 2018 by jaeger

[Jeff S]

The X1D actually has minimal shutter lag; however there is EVF blackout.  These are different things...

Jeff

[raizans]

The M11 will (hopefully):

1. Be available in low, standard, and high magnifications with your choice of framelines.
2. Not have that brightness sensor mucking up the top plate.
3. Not have that focusing button on the front of the camera.
4. Have neither a red spot nor an oversized screw, but either a black chrome or silver chrome dot to match the body.
5. Have the classic top plate engraving.
6. Have a combined shutter speed + ISO + EV compensation dial like the Minolta CLE and Zeiss Ikon.
7. Have a new sensor: 36-50mp, higher dynamic range, global shutter, etc.
8. Have video.
9. Have IBIS.
10. Have better WiFi implementation.
11. Have a touchscreen like the M10-P.
12. Have internal memory
13. Have a battery that pops out like on the S- and SL-series bodies.

[Jeff S]

The Leica camera brand (and logos) are licensed to the company by Leica Microsystems GmbH, an independent company.  The red logo cannot be changed from red to black or silver.  The black M8.2 came with a black dot (the chrome version with a red dot), and by all reports this created a mess.  That won’t happen again, at least not under current arrangements as I understand them.  Independent folks like DAG (or any user) can tinker with the logo all they want, but Leica Camera can’t officially do that without authorization.

Jeff

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[raizans]

The black dot on the M8.2 caused a problem? The Zagato special edition had a silver dot, and the titanium D-Lux 4 had a titanium dot. They must have worked things out based on the M8.2 experience. But why wasn’t there a problem with the LHSA M6 TTL?

Edited December 1, 2018 by raizans