M 11 will be around in less than 4 years. The speculations and facts.

[lucerne]

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NDOC.

Why are there calls for an M11 to to be a completely different technical device from the M10. It’s ridiculous. If you believe that the M10 is a dodo, why were you so keen to get one less than 12 months ago.

I bought into the rangefinder for its simplicity. Your specifications will be a complex monster requiring huge research and development expenditure and will be a direct competitor with canon, Nikon, etc. Leica can’t win that battle.

However, let Leica try, but it can be called anything except an M.

What will be the value of all our M lenses. They wouldn’t suit your proposed specification.

 

 

Maybe you were joking?

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[M11 for me]

Many here just love the optical rangefinder concept. Its all its mechanical pieces it contains. Imagine to let that go for an OVF. I think tha Leica M stands for as little electronical parts as possible. If most elements of that would be gone we would still have the lenses. But for how long more are these lenses above the competition. Canon launches one after the next. And another thing is important. From the moment that in Lightroom you just have a profile that helps you with very little LR-work to come near the Leica colors, then I wonder why you should pay such a lot. There is still the size and the beauty.

 

At the moment I would go for Leica again. The rendering is amazing and with Canon it is difficult to impossible to come to the same result in Lightroom.

[jaapv]

I'm curious why mention Carl Jung?

 

 

Because the Leica M is the archetypal "camera" Look at "no photography" signs, for instance

[lucerne]

I think its a miracle that we still can buy rangefinder cameras, with new, digital technology, and use them directly with old and new lenses.

 

I really hope Leica will continue to make M cameras for many, many years yet!

I agree, but Is it a miracle that we can still buy mechanical watches given that they do not generally offer anything more than timekeeping with a calendar. Given choice, buyers of Watches will pay £10 to £200,000 for a piece of technology that has hardly changed since the introduction of mechanical timekeeping.

I love my simple and multiple complications mechanical watches as much as my rangefinders. I ignore the continual emergence of digital timepieces such as the Apple Watch. Each of the Apple Watches will become obsolete within a short time. That’s the modern manufacturing business plan. They cannot retain value.

 

Vintage autos, mechanical watches, rangefinder Cameras with manual settings fit perfectly into a philosophy I follow. Judging by many interesting posts on this forum over the years I’m sure many others buy into it as well.

 

Here’s a wind-up Angelus from the 1940’s. Triple date plus chrono. I’ve been wearing it regularly. Still serviceable.

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Edited July 9, 2018 by lucerne

[jaapv]

Very nice, Gordon

[ianman]

Leica should provide two M models because they cannot make an M that satisfies all of the conflicting wishes outlined in this thread.

 

The first (purist) M would be an evolution of the M10, with a better optical viewfinder, sensor and dynamic range, but keeping all of the traditional elements of the M as they are.

 

The second (modern) M model would have an EVF instead of the OVF, video, electronic shutter, image stabilization, tethering, doors instead of the baseplate and made of aluminum.

 

I don't subscribe to the theory that a modern M will cannibalize the purist M, in fact, I think Leica will sell more Ms than they do now by appealing to traditional users, disgruntled users, new users, and by selling both models to some us.

This is so funny, I remember such a post almost word for word in a "what will the M10 be?" type thread a few years ago.

 

Edit: having read a few more posts here, it seem that the whole thread is almost a word for word copy of the old pre M10 thread. There are those who "want" (curious, they do not use the words "like to have", but "want" "want" "want") the next M to have everything they could easily find in a different brand but they also "want" an M. And other who would rather the M stayed the M albeit with a few improvements.

Edited July 9, 2018 by ianman

[SpartanWaveDave]

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I'm surprised there is any demand for stabilization on a M camera... it's already ridiculously easy to hand hold at slow shutter speeds.  Seems like this is just the current marketing ploy to make people feel like they are missing something, but in reality has little benefit.   Those people that want a evf instead of a optical viewfinder don't want an M... they just want a smaller SL.  The M10 is a great camera... the M11 should just work on a resolution bump (though i'm happy with the current) and longer battery life.

[Guest]

Well what I'd like to have in any M development after the M10 would be as impossible an "ask" as many of the others are in this thread, but anyway here goes.....

 

I'd really like to have Leica greatly extend the A'la Carte service that's presently around to a service that would enable the retro-fitting of new sensors, new processors and alternate viewfinder fl optics in the present M10 body which most agree is the best M body so far and most find that there's little reason to change it's present form in future iterations so why not build it in the same form and make it upgradeable?

 

Sure that service, like most of Leica's offerings, would be expensive but it would for a lot of M owners put an end to the almost constant "hook" to get the latest technology in a brand new M body, they could simply upgrade their existing M10/11...whatever. I for one would happily pay for such a service whereby I could upgrade existing gear, and in fact have done so with film. ( movie ), camera equipment in past and recent years, ( Aaton, Arri with film cameras and even digital RED cameras too ). 

 

Whether such an upgrading service would be a good business plan or economical to Leica I wouldn't know but I for one would welcome the opportunity to own a camera who's form I am more than content with but would have the ability to be upgraded at a later date rather than dumped for a new one as per' the rather stupid cycle that we are all in now.......Not only with digital Leica's, that goes with pretty much everything in fact. 

Edited July 9, 2018 by petermullett

[jdlaing]

I am supposing you will never, ever get a replaceable sensor.

[M11 for me]

Is it meant that this then should be a sensor from 2005 or so?

[jaapv]

Well what I'd like to have in any M development after the M10 would be as impossible an "ask" as many of the others are in this thread, but anyway here goes.....

 

I'd really like to have Leica greatly extend the A'la Carte service that's presently around to a service that would enable the retro-fitting of new sensors, new processors and alternate viewfinder fl optics in the present M10 body which most agree is the best M body so far and most find that there's little reason to change it's present form in future iterations so why not build it in the same form and make it upgradeable?

 

Sure that service, like most of Leica's offerings, would be expensive but it would for a lot of M owners put an end to the almost constant "hook" to get the latest technology in a brand new M body, they could simply upgrade their existing M10/11...whatever. I for one would happily pay for such a service whereby I could upgrade existing gear, and in fact have done so with film. ( movie ), camera equipment in past and recent years, ( Aaton, Arri with film cameras and even digital RED cameras too ). 

 

Whether such an upgrading service would be a good business plan or economical to Leica I wouldn't know but I for one would welcome the opportunity to own a camera who's form I am more than content with but would have the ability to be upgraded at a later date rather than dumped for a new one as per' the rather stupid cycle that we are all in now.......Not only with digital Leica's, that goes with pretty much everything in fact. 

Well, that idea got one CEO fired...

[jdlaing]

Is it meant that this then should be a sensor from 2005 or so?

You’re joining an elite group of “I want this right now because it is better” aficionados.

[wlaidlaw]

I'm surprised there is any demand for stabilization on a M camera... it's already ridiculously easy to hand hold at slow shutter speeds.  Seems like this is just the current marketing ploy to make people feel like they are missing something, but in reality has little benefit.   Those people that want a evf instead of a optical viewfinder don't want an M... they just want a smaller SL.  The M10 is a great camera... the M11 should just work on a resolution bump (though i'm happy with the current) and longer battery life.

Depends on how steady your hands are. Mine aren’t from old injuries and arthritis and IBIS would be a considerable boon to me. I was very disappointed the CL didn’t have it.

 

Wilson

[Guest]

Well, that idea got one CEO fired...

 

 

Yes of course you're right jaapv, I remember that.....but it doesn't mean that he was wrong on the basic idea that would enable us to refresh our cameras to some extent down the road, just wrong for Leica at that time, but technologically it's quite doable.

And anyway as I said in the post I realise that it's pretty much an "impossible ask" but this is what these postings / forums are for to some extent, throwing our ideas onto the walls to see if any will stick.

Edited July 9, 2018 by petermullett

[dkmoore]

This is so funny, I remember such a post almost word for word in a "what will the M10 be?" type thread a few years ago.

 

Edit: having read a few more posts here, it seem that the whole thread is almost a word for word copy of the old pre M10 thread. There are those who "want" (curious, they do not use the words "like to have", but "want" "want" "want") the next M to have everything they could easily find in a different brand but they also "want" an M. And other who would rather the M stayed the M albeit with a few improvements.

 

 

 

I "want want want" every new model of M that comes out. Check is in the mail Leica so don't stop building M's!

 

:  )

[NDOC]

NDOC.

Why are there calls for an M11 to to be a completely different technical device from the M10. It’s ridiculous. If you believe that the M10 is a dodo, why were you so keen to get one less than 12 months ago.

I bought into the rangefinder for its simplicity. Your specifications will be a complex monster requiring huge research and development expenditure and will be a direct competitor with canon, Nikon, etc. Leica can’t win that battle.

However, let Leica try, but it can be called anything except an M.

What will be the value of all our M lenses. They wouldn’t suit your proposed specification.

 

 

Maybe you were joking?

 

I wasn't joking at all. I was completely serious. I made that wishlist because I want the M11 to be the best camera possible. And it would not require a massive R&D effort by Leica. Nor would it require a big learning curve for present Leica shooters. On the contrary. Having a state-of-the-art EVF would make the M11 far easier to use because it will allow the photographer to nail the framing and exposure of every shot, on the fly, with no chimping whatsoever. And as for Leica's superb line of M lenses, an all-digital M11 would still be M-mount, of course. There's no reason why it couldn't or shouldn't be. And it would compete with Nikon, Canon and others on the same basis as Leica has always competed: the rock solid quality of the M system and the legendary "Leica look" of the images it produces.

 

Most of the features on my list are already in use in other cameras. The only one that would be truly cutting edge is the curved sensor. But we're almost there. And in less than four years a curved sensor will be a reality. It only requires Leica to have the vision to incorporate in their next M. There's absolutely no reason to have a mechanical rangefinder in a flagship digital camera. EVF technology is mature. Optical viewfinders of all types are obsolete. When the coupled rangefinder was introduced by Leica in 1932 it was hailed as a game-changing technological miracle. Your timid intellectual forebears condemned it for the same reason. It's time for Leica to be a game changer again with the M11.

Edited July 10, 2018 by NDOC

[Keith_W]

Well said, NDOC. Leica built its reputation on being startlingly innovative. But in the 21st century it is held back by nostalgists who think that WW2 era technology is the summit of achievement and pooh-pooh anything new. The way some people on this forum react, it seems as if any technological progress is offensive to them. 

[M11 for me]

You’re joining an elite group of “I want this right now because it is better” aficionados.

Oh, definitely no. I would not like a sensor from 2005. :::::——)))

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[UliWer]

Well, that idea got one CEO fired...

 

It was Oskar Barnack's idea.  

 

He wrote an advertising text for the Leica II where he stated that every Leica camera could be updated with every new development for Leica cameras in the future. Leitz cut this passage from the published text, and saved Barnack...

 

When Mr. Lee was CEO during the times of the M8 he made the same statement in public with almost the same words as Barnack had used more than 70 years before. He wasn't fired out of this reason only.  

[jaapv]

Leica is innovative in their own way, but does realize that the options are limited within the parameters of the M concept. And justly so, it is what makes this camera attractive. 

So:

The M evolves whilst sticking as closely as possible to the original concept.

The SL is the platform for advanced use.

The CL is a modern interpretation of the original Leica/Barnack idea: The highest possible quality in a small, portable package, sacrificing film (in this case sensor) size. 

 

Which means that the basic answer from Leica to all the  backseat innovators, including myself, of the M system is: "We provide other cameras for your wants. You can even use M lenses without restrictions on those models."