M 11 will be around in less than 4 years. The speculations and facts.

[jonatdonuts]

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Second this. 

 

When using film, rangefinder focusing with a fast 35 or 50 was and still is relatively easy. But with a 24MP sensor, and using the exceptional ASPH and APO lenses, focussing wide open on fast lenses can be tricky, especially when you are on the street. While you may get shots that are 'acceptably in focus', they often do not resolve the full potential of what the sensor and lens can offer. I would assume that the more experienced M users whose eyesight is not as good as it once was (probably from shooting the M so much) would empathise. And if they increase the pixel count, then the difficulty to achieve critical focus will become even greater. 

 

The easiest way of doing it is to offer a switchable EVF that still maintains the function of the rangefinder patch. The EVF would therefore be a screen that drops down in front of the rangefinder patch that continues to operate as normal. That way, you can quickly focus the lens using the traditional rangefinder method, and at the same time, confirm that the focus is exactly where you intended. You'd also have the benefit of seeing the changing depth of field and exposure. For the purists who do not wish to use this feature, then they just stick to the traditional OVF and do not switch into the EVF mode. 

 

But if they found a way to do this using purely an OVF, then that would be quite an innovative and much appreciated development. 

 

If they do leave the OVF alone, then a new attachable EVF housed in the same casing as a brass brightline viewfinder would be beautiful for those fast long lenses.

 

 

 

 

 

I'd like to see a really clever, simple and innovative way to confirm focus. There must be a way to do this which is game changing.

We all like the rangefinder approach. I don't really want a built-in EVF. I've been looking at an EVF as a mechanism to magnify the focus area to confirm focus, rather than anything else. I don't want a clip-on appendage.

I want to use the OVF, and the rangefinder. But I want a way to confirm focus, especially for wide aperture shooting, which is more accurate than the rangefinder (90/2 user here).

There must be a way. Some sort of overlay in the viewfinder? Or some sort of real-time graphical interpretation e.g. a bar along the bottom of the viewfinder that interprets the focus inside the rangefinder patch, and which changes colour or intensity as focus is reached.

There's a real opportunity here for Leica to use the latest tech to assist and improve the fantastic experiance that is rangefinder photography, in a subtle, elegant and complimentary manner.

Edited July 3, 2018 by jonatdonuts

[wlaidlaw]

The 1MP Visoflex viewfinder on the M240 is really quite poor and the screen is small as well. I have not used the later Visoflex EVF but I assume it is the same screen as on my CL which is OK, if a bit too small but not a patch on the 4MP "Retina resolution" EVF on the SL which is spectacularly good. These things are improving all the time and I would hope by the time that the M11 comes along, there would be a 4MP screen small enough to fit in an EVF body of reasonable size. It for example it was as large as the VF-4 that was the Olympus successor to the VF-2 that Leica used on the M240, that would be just about acceptable for me but maybe a bit big for others. Even so, I am not sure I will be a customer for an M11. I have polarised to using M's for film photography and the Leica mirrorless offerings, SL and CL for digital. 

 

Wilson

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[Jeff S]

I don't know where they hide the edit function. So I have to correct the mistake here.

It appears next to the quote button using the same click/touch access. But there’s a time limit to edit.... yours likely expired.

 

Jeff

[Kevinfinity]

There are a lot of folk who like both the video and live view. If Leica can incorporate these with no size penalty why not? If you don't like them don't use them but a camera should not be hobbled to suit the needs of someone who does not like a function. It would be saying: "I never use a strap with my Leica, so the strap lugs should be deleted". A somewhat self centred attitude. 

 

Wilson

 

Hi Wilson, I get your point. Why not if they could. But, why not just go for a mirrorless camera like Sony A7 series. I  have A7R II by the way. They are fantastic cameras and very practical. If people who really like to buy the luxury branded camera with excellent video and live view functions, instead of rangefinder camera Leica provided choice for them like Leica SL. Those functions work perfectly with the mirrorless camera, and there are lots of autofocus lenses available for the mirrorless cameras. Using the manual focus lens on Leica Rangefinder camera to shoot videos? Come on... I really don't get it. 

 

Again, just like what I said in the previous post, anything else that is not related to photographing is utterly ruining the original concept of the Leica M camera and will become a barrier for Leica M to be a more professional and classic digital camera. I just hope that Leica could give us a new sensor, which means higher resolution, faster processor, and make it more like the analog Leica M in the next generation.

 

Kevin

[wlaidlaw]

Kevin, 

 

Remember most professional videographers still use manual focus. If the new M11 is 40 or 45 MP, I would not be surprised if the video was 6 or 8K processor dependant. If this is the case, it would be the smallest 8K camera around and quite attractive to professionals, when used with the Leica Cine Primes, either Summicron or Summilux. The Red series of video cameras, have pushed the chip makers to far faster processors. However, I am not sure these processors are small enough, power economical enough or cool running enough to fit in a small body like the M11. 

 

Wilson 

[ramarren]

But presumably also with M10 size (thinner) than MD (fatter)?

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

 

No. The M-D where I grip it is as thin as the M10, and without the cumbersome array of buttons and LCD that get in the way of my hands. I prefer how the M-D feels in my hands to the extent that I have not yet seen any reason at all to buy an M10, other than the improved viewfinder and sensor of the M10 ... which aren't enough justification to spend for it, for me. 

 

When I measured the two cameras side-by-side at the Leica Store in SF, the M10 in some places might be as much as 1mm thinner ... but most places it is thicker. And the M-D was much more comfortable to hold, with controls in more convenient locations, than the M10. 

[ramarren]

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There are a lot of folk who like both the video and live view. If Leica can incorporate these with no size penalty why not? If you don't like them don't use them but a camera should not be hobbled to suit the needs of someone who does not like a function. It would be saying: "I never use a strap with my Leica, so the strap lugs should be deleted". A somewhat self centred attitude. 

 

Wilson

 

 

No matter how slickly you add video and live view, etc, it will introduce additional complexity and decision making at the point of use.  I'd rather not have to deal with that on my M, which is why I stick with the M-D.

[jaapv]

There are a lot of folk who like both the video and live view. If Leica can incorporate these with no size penalty why not? If you don't like them don't use them but a camera should not be hobbled to suit the needs of someone who does not like a function. It would be saying: "I never use a strap with my Leica, so the strap lugs should be deleted". A somewhat self centred attitude. 

 

Wilson

Well said, Wilson. The omission of video was the deal breaker for the M10 for me. In 2017 that was fake-retro. 

[blacksinner]

Oh, I do have a wish: bring video back, if possible in such a discrete manner as not to upset the more traditional users. Consider the tradition of the Leica Travel Camera as promoted by Dr.Paul Wolff; he carried an extra cine camera to supplement his Leica travel photography.

 

although its not possible. due to lack of microphone in the first place. i really wish it has video 

[Kevinfinity]

Kevin, 

 

Remember most professional videographers still use manual focus. If the new M11 is 40 or 45 MP, I would not be surprised if the video was 6 or 8K processor dependant. If this is the case, it would be the smallest 8K camera around and quite attractive to professionals, when used with the Leica Cine Primes, either Summicron or Summilux. The Red series of video cameras, have pushed the chip makers to far faster processors. However, I am not sure these processors are small enough, power economical enough or cool running enough to fit in a small body like the M11. 

 

Wilson 

Wilson,

 

Sure I know. I also shoot videos with my Sony A6500 and Sony A7R II. I am not professional though. But I do know that professional videographers will use manual focus from time to time. And they need much more than that to finish the job. Professional videographers also need to use stabilizer system, follow focus tool equipped with the manual focus lens so that they could get the smooth footage out of the camera. When shooting 4k video, camera body temperature will most likely get very high and stop function very quickly if the camera doesn't have the efficient cooling system. That has happened with my Sony A6500. So there is no doubt that the Leica engineer has to increase the size of Leica M camera a lot to make it work properly. Other than that, video shooting will drain out the battery very quick especially when you shooting 4K. So, you need external battery pack connects with the Leica M to make sure the footage could be taken without any accident. Last but not least, an external monitor is also necessary for the professional videographer because they need to keep tracking the footage clearly instead of using that tiny screen on the Leica M. How many ports that need to be put in the handy Leica M camera in order to make all those things happen? At least one external battery port, one mini HDMI port, one audio port, one more or even two more threaded holes on the Leica M body for the installation of the camera cage. Please think about it. And you also mentioned the processor size which will be a  huge issue too. 

 

In my opinion, if Leica decides to make those things happen to convince professional videographer to purchase the Leica M, that will be a massive marketing failure for Leica. I don't want to repeat this sentence. But I have to... That's not a Leica rangefinder camera anymore. I even don't know whether it's possible for Leica to make such rangefinder camera? If they could, how much will it cost?  How many people could afford it in that case?

 

Kevin

Edited July 4, 2018 by Kevinfinity

[mmradman]

 

Wilson,

 

Sure I know. I also shoot videos with my Sony A6500 and Sony A7R II. I am not professional though. But I do know that professional videographers will use manual focus from time to time. And they need much more than that to finish the job. Professional videographers also need to use stabilizer system, follow focus tool equipped with the manual focus lens so that they could get the smooth footage out of the camera. When shooting 4k video, camera body temperature will most likely get very high and stop function very quickly if the camera doesn't have the efficient cooling system. That has happened with my Sony A6500. So there is no doubt that the Leica engineer has to increase the size of Leica M camera a lot to make it work properly. Other than that, video shooting will drain out the battery very quick especially when you shooting 4K. So, you need external battery pack connects with the Leica M to make sure the footage could be taken without any accident. Last but not least, an external monitor is also necessary for the professional videographer because they need to keep tracking the footage clearly instead of using that tiny screen on the Leica M. How many ports that need to be put in the handy Leica M camera in order to make all those things happen? At least one external battery port, one mini HDMI port, one audio port, one more or even two more threaded holes on the Leica M body for the installation of the camera cage. Please think about it. And you also mentioned the processor size which will be a  huge issue too. 

 

In my opinion, if Leica decides to make those things happen to convince professional videographer to purchase the Leica M, that will be a massive marketing failure for Leica. I don't want to repeat this sentence. But I have to... That's not a Leica rangefinder camera anymore. I even don't know whether it's possible for Leica to make such rangefinder camera? If they could, how much will it cost?  How many people could afford it in that case?

 

Kevin

 

Providing Leica maintain bottom plate in the future optional hand grip can provide all additional interface ports required for either video or tethered shooting, also extra power.  Main body will of course have to be enabled for stills/video, extra lines of code don't add bulk. 

 

Unless future sensors become energy efficient keeping current type sensors sufficiently cool for video shooting may be obstacle to introducing video, although this could be designed with some lateral thinking - you either increase size of cool sink or find a way to channel heat away from the sensor or you introduce additional air flow. 

[wlaidlaw]

For processor and sensor cooling, Leica could use the liquid metal cooling solution that Apple have used successfully in their MacBook Pros for a number of years. I assume this uses Gallium which melts at 29ºC or alloyed with Indium, its melting point can be as low as -19ºC . However, there will also soon be a big leap in chip making, both power and efficiency, as TSMC (Taiwan Semi-Conductor Manufacturing Company) get their 7nM and later 4nM multi-layer chips into the market. Not only do these enable far more processor power to be crammed into a tiny space but they are also very energy efficient. I am sure the other chip makers will be hard on their heels. The processors that Leica use are somewhat antiquated and have been around for a long time. As Mladen says above, put all the extra ports into a multifunction grip but this time, liaise with videographers first, to see what they need.

 

Wilson 

[roelv1]

Possibly, but I doubt it. The M10 has actually pushed me in another direction by making Leica's direction clear. I am phasing out the M system for wildlife  and replacing it with the DG Vario-Elmar on the GX8. Actually I am very impressed by the quality that I am getting out of the lens and the new Panasonic 20 MP MFT sensor. The DG  Summilux 15 has convinced me as well for casual and travel photography. i am ogling a Nocticron. Which does not mean that the M240 has been retired. It is still my favorite body on the Summiluxes 24 and 50 and the Super-Elmar 18, the APO-Telyt 135 is a magic lens as well, but for the rest I will be selling off  most of my R lenses and a few of the M ones too.

 

In this sense the M10 is a seminal camera. It forces the customer to make a clear decision on his photography, something the previous digital Ms never did.

 

Is that right? In the case of wildlife photography I think that it has always been clear that the M system never was the best option. Certainly not when using long lenses. We knew that long before the M 10. The M 10 itself is a great improvement over the M 240, as many reviewers already have concluded. Sure, it misses video, but the M 240 was also never the best option for video.. Kind regards, Roel. http://www.roelvisser.nl

Edited July 4, 2018 by roelv1

[Kevinfinity]

I think people really should do some research to learn why Leica rangefinder camera still have huge fan base nowadays. What’s the history of it? How the legendary people in the past use this cameras? Why 60 years ago Leica engineer design the camera this way? And then, people will understand why it’s a bad idea to think of putting video function into Rangefinder camera or using Leica for shooting wildlife. I really don’t want to offend anybody here since we all love Leica and we have a nice community here. But I think something just went wrong and I have to say something to make it right.

Edited July 4, 2018 by Kevinfinity

[Kevinfinity]

Is that right? In the case of wildlife photography I think that it has always been clear that the M system never was the best option. Certainly not when using long lenses. We knew that long before the M 10. The M 10 itself is a great improvement over the M 240, as many reviewers already have concluded. Sure, it misses video, but the M 240 was also never the best option for video.. Kind regards, Roel. http://www.roelvisser.nl

I couldn’t agree more.

[Hello]

It'd be interesting to see if they could implement either a hybrid viewfinder like the X-Pro/X100 line. Either the overlay in the OVF, or a switch that allows changing from original rangefinder to an EVF with a true rangefinder function. Probably not possible, but would still be interesting.

[brill64]

Better quality jpg's ooc!!

[jonatdonuts]

It seems that Leica already ditched the idea of reintegrating video back into the M, since they already have other, more suitable options for cinematographers. 

 

By sheer design alone, it is difficult to ever see the M as a professional video camera, even if they were to bring back the detachable bottom plates with all the ports. There is no AF, no through the lens focus, no IBIS etc.

 

I understand that there are those who would wish to have the option of shooting video for those one off moments, and if they did include that feature without compromising on size, weight, price, heat, operation etc, then why not? But this is difficult to execute well considering the M's limitations, and would probably only just exceed the quality produced by the phone in your pocket. The fact that the 4k video of 2017's flagship phones compares well with professional video camera systems in good to ok light speaks volumes. By the time the M11 comes out, the rapidly advancing tech in cellphones would have closed that gap even more. 

 

I had thought that the main success of the M10 was down to the fact that it stayed true to its philosophy and reduced the camera down to the bear essentials. That was what pulled me towards it anyways. Simple, lean, and straightforward; built only for its intended purpose. 

Edited July 4, 2018 by jonatdonuts

[mmradman]

It seems that Leica already ditched the idea of reintegrating video back into the M, since they already have other, more suitable options for cinematographers. 

 

By sheer design alone, it is difficult to ever see the M as a professional video camera, even if they were to bring back the detachable bottom plates with all the ports. There is no AF, no through the lens focus, no IBIS etc.

 

I understand that there are those who would wish to have the option of shooting video for those one off moments, and if they did include that feature without compromising on size, weight, price, heat, operation etc, then why not? But this is difficult to execute well considering the M's limitations, and would probably only just exceed the quality produced by the phone in your pocket. The fact that the 4k video of 2017's flagship phones compares well with professional video camera systems in good to ok light speaks volumes. By the time the M11 comes out, the rapidly advancing tech in cellphones would have closed that gap even more. 

 

I had thought that the main success of the M10 was down to the fact that it stayed true to its philosophy and reduced the camera down to the bear essentials. That was what pulled me towards it anyways. Simple, lean, and straightforward; built only for its intended purpose. 

I think bringing smart phones as a comparison is misleading. I get sharp iPhone pictures in good light all the time but viewing at full resolution even on small screen laptop  quickly reveals all shortcomings of the small sensor. We were there with still digital cameras in the early 2000s when sensors were small.

 

Either an iPhone or Huwei P20 or any Samsung Android can produce nowdays multi pixel still and video (4K) output size but pixel size matters a great deal.  Any current half-serious video camera is based on micro 4:3 sensor or bigger.  

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[jonatdonuts]

I fully agree, but the idea was not to compare absolute quality, since those who are chasing serious video capability (and thinking rationally) would not take a second look at the M, due to its blatant and shameless limitations. 

 

Rather, the idea was to compare quality that is 'good enough'. For those one-off times when you do want video, an iPhone 8 or Samsung S8 would be able to perform 4k that is arguably 'good enough' in good to ok light. I would argue to the extent that people with untrained eyes would be unable to distinguish between footage shot with an iPhone 8 and that shot with a GH5 when edited in the same manner. 

 

That's a cellphone in 2017. To think about what their video capabilities will be like in 2020 / 2021 when the M11 is probably due is frightening. 

 

 

 

 

 

I think bringing smart phones as a comparison is misleading. I get sharp iPhone pictures in good light all the time but viewing at full resolution even on small screen laptop  quickly reveals all shortcomings of the small sensor. We were there with still digital cameras in the early 2000s when sensors were small.

 

Either an iPhone or Huwei P20 or any Samsung Android can produce nowdays multi pixel still and video (4K) output size but pixel size matters a great deal.  Any current half-serious video camera is based on micro 4:3 sensor or bigger.  

Edited July 4, 2018 by jonatdonuts