Criticism and pleasant photography

[fotografr]

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and if I have 50 differnt opinions under my pictures I will respect all 50 opinions. I dont have to agree, but I will respect them, I have to live with it when I show pictures in public. regards

 

 

But if the intent is to help the photographer improve, as we claim, how does all this confusion accomplish that? I would maintain that it often does more harm than good. I know of one photographer here who repeatedly expressed his desire to not receive critiques, but a few members persisted in offering them and he now no longer posts his work. In a more different example, a photographer posted what he considered his strongest image from an assignment in Darfur. Some people liked it as it was, others said it needed more information--a wider shot. So he posted the wider shot, and is now probably wondering himself what is his strongest image. Who is right? Anyone? Everyone? What has the critique done for him other than to make him question his initial determination? Which of us here is expert enough that our opinions should impact the direction of another person's work?

 

My position is that we all have the ability to self-critique. We know when we have a good photograph and when we have a mediocre one and we don't need the flaws in our work highlighted for everyone in the forum to see. If one asks for it, that's fine. But when one specifically asks not to have it, I think that request should be honored.

[fotografr]

this is like in a game, some person are playing only if they are winner.

..other stop playing if something is going wrong..

...and some loose, loose, loose, but they lean and getting better and later they win.. think about it!...

 

regards,

Jan

 

It is just a discussion of different opinions. Nothing more, nothing less.

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[fotografr]

fotografr, maybe you are easily confused or your capacity to analyse is yet to mature enough to take advice:rolleyes: ..... then was it because you were stung by criticism on another thread...... a patern is forming in your responses

 

Why is it not possible to discuss differences of opinion without resorting to personal attacks?

[vic vic]

listen brent...

i will not speack for stefan or imants or any other person, but when i say some critique, i dont mean to give "to do / not to do" list. man - open your hurizons. the pic doesnt work. simply doesnt. and im not just anybody who speacks nonesenses. im fucking inlighted and educated person, activly involved in photograph making processes in many ways. so beforre crying and yeling, read it, concider it. u dont have to agree with me. u dont have to see my critiques as instruction of how to do or repeat this or that picture. it is only a discussion that is a most basic and most valued method of learning the art - discussion and opening hurizon. it is not about the past picture. it is about learning past pictures and next time, in the new situation u will confront with, simply to be a much better photographer - more sensetive, with more developed taste, with better abaility to develop concept etc etc.

[telewatt]

It is just a discussion of different opinions. Nothing more, nothing less.

 

no, it is like in music, some play a instrument and some learn to play it...and when you learned a little bit, you understand more and more and you have a different vision..

 

regards,

Jan

[fotografr]

listen brent...

i will not speack for stefan or imants or any other person, but when i say some critique, i dont mean to give "to do / not to do" list. man - open your hurizons. the pic doesnt work. simply doesnt. and im not just anybody who speacks nonesenses. im fucking inlighted and educated person, activly involved in photograph making processes in many ways. so beforre crying and yeling, read it, concider it. u dont have to agree with me. u dont have to see my critiques as instruction of how to do or repeat this or that picture. it is only a discussion that is a most basic and most valued method of learning the art - discussion and opening hurizon. it is not about the past picture. it is about learning past pictures and next time, in the new situation u will confront with, simply to be a much better photographer - more sensetive, with more developed taste, with better abaility to develop concept etc etc.

 

Victor--I am only making a general point. This has nothing whatever to do with my photograph that was recently discussed. That is history and I'm done with it--thought you were too. I am talking about how we deal in general with each other and what critiques given here mean to the photographer. I am not making any kind of personal statement about my work. I have made no reference to it here and don't know why you assume it. Go back and read my last post on that thread.

 

I had hoped we could have a more calm and rational discussion about this. I guess that's not going to happen.

[Guest stnami]

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fotografr it's your inability to accept the purpose of a critique that is the worry here. saying that you are wealthy due to photo stuff is probably the wierdest thing written in terms of justification of critique I have read I to had to laugh

[Guest Stefan R.]

In a more different example, a photographer posted what he considered his strongest image from an assignment in Darfur. Some people liked it as it was, others said it needed more information--a wider shot. So he posted the wider shot, and is now probably wondering himself what is his strongest image. Who is right? Anyone? Everyone?

 

 

 

My position is that we all have the ability to self-critique. We know when we have a good photograph and when we have a mediocre one and we don't need the flaws in our work highlighted for everyone in the forum to see. If one asks for it, that's fine. But when one specifically asks not to have it, I think that request should be honored.

 

Brent,

 

1. everyone is right for him or herself. but there are still some "rules" what makes a storytelling picture. it takes many years too learn how to "see". what maybe 5 years ago for me was a great picture today may be boring. why? in these years we have learned, we got more information....

the Dafur example, sent it to experienced photojournalists lets say to Magnum or VII, if your arrive with the close up they will send you back home. if you come with the wider shot you will sell it. the wider shot tells much more about the whole situation then the close up, the use of space and room, the placement of the persons in the picture, the cloth of the people.....

 

2. so, what we want? this phone answering machine comments? "wonderful again" even on our mediocre pictures? what is this, 5min satisfaction until we upload the next one? how many members has this forum, several thousand? do we want them all to comment in the way we would like? I think thats impossible. I still believe that minds are free. do we need police man beside every single picture who controls what people are saying?

do you rip off the pages from your guest book, who contain negative comments about your work, when your exhibition (in the real gallery world) is over?

 

wish you a nice day, regards S.

[FMB]

Good morning all of you. I've just opened the Forum and wanted to say, before answering you, some remarks:

 

1- Thank you all for your participation in the thread.

2- Due to English is not my first language I have big difficulties in understanding many of your documented comments and, of course, in preparing my answers. I’m ready to try to do it.

3- As I’ve already said I don’t agree with the common? accord about the subjective values of images as mean to qualify them. Always and before we must evaluate the objective pros and cons.

 

Meanwhile I invite you to follow with your participation.

 

Francisco.

[FMB]

Again me.

 

Norbert I think this is.

 

Arthur, as you say, I agree, photography is an excellent mean to celebrate life.

 

Victor, I don’t remember which well-known Photographer said that the subject has always to fill the frame. You are right, the tree should be forgotten.

Bresson and Lartigue have been my idols when I was young. I’ve several books Vive la France, A propos de l’U.R.S.S., and another one using also Leica, E. Haas (The Creation).

 

Ravi, I’ve also read Barr’s levels. Does “G” level exist in images could be touched?

 

Jan, you have hidden your wife’s face, then you were finding something else than a familiar and private image.

 

Brent, Stefan, Steve, Imants, Victor and…me with very different opinions about criticism, I’ve said I’m in favour of it and I think we should do, as in F1, a Stop and go… till next year. Time clarifies all the things.

 

The first and the last cruel critic (having heard and listened the others) should be oneself.

 

Bye,

 

Francisco.

[vic vic]

brent.. no im not there.. u r still there though. dont mess...

 

about privet/public issues.

 

the question of privet/public is one of the deepest in art (photography, pinting, poetry etce tce and even performance arts of course).

this question of full of diversity. one thing is that we want an artist to be fully individual, portraining the world or the theme through his catalizis, but from the other hand we want that work to have universal qualities. that is a chalange on its own. i mean intelectual chalange too, not only practical chalange of creating the art work.

the other diversity is far deeper than the above one. itis a diversity in the thinking patterns we have, in our descursive ablities and its clahing with our inuitive abilities. this is the duality of privet case vs generalization (or generalizes unit or some may even give it substance status). in science version this problem is called "induction/deduction probelem". how we articulate a general term to a privet case?? how we apply from a privet case to a generalized unity?? there will be many philosopho-psycological answers to this dynamics, and some directly try to talk about art and aesthetic issues, but none of them is fully sucessful, and the answers only sound nice within their own theoretical attitudes.

but here is one super important thing we confront with in arts many times, and in photography particularly.

great english philosopher bertrandt russell (logic developer, early 20 century) was driven crazy by the privet/general duality. he though that many of our linguistic and logic problems are because of it. something lacks there. there is privet case - true. there is general case - concept, idea, generalization. but he also suggested that there should be so called "privet generalization". a kind of something inbetween so to speack. suppose this example he gives... suppose this... u see many portraits in national geographic - local people portraits. are they privet cases or general cases. privet case it is not really, u dont even know his/her name although many clebs would be glad to have that kind of expossure ). but it is neither general case cause u dont see india people (suppose it was from india), u see some person, even in close up, full frame face. whats we see there is a specific person that in some circumstances is (or can be) a privet case, but we articulate to him only general qualities and characteristcs.

in photography, when we want to talk about person authentically, we make (or supposed to) every effort to transfer the person from "privet generalization" in the perspective of the viewer to a "real privet case". maybe one picture, maybe a series of picture of visual story will be needed there. we can make the same way a family albums that can be interesting to all the viewers, because by transfering from privet generalization to privet case we are able to influnce the viewers feelings too.

 

photography is not a stupid processes. ya, compose this way, expose this way is stupid. every body can learn it more or less. good photography is beyound it. it is about intelect, about feelings, about the magic of fleeting moments, and stories, aethetics. in photography there is a visual element which is the factual photo that u see, and there is the "invissible" element, of all those intelectual qualities, emotional engagemnets etc etc. and also, good photography is rarly a picture "grabbing". good photography is driven by concept, which is a sum of thematic development and opinion, and the aethetic passion. and one more important thing - diversity. this is one of the most important things in creating good work. if u feel not only passion, but also diversity in your own mind. diversity can be turned into dialectic process of creation.

 

here is a pic, with cutted heads. u dont need heads. the photograph supposed to be what u see and it supposed to be a privet generalization ) concept.

mp 50 apx100. personally, 50 mm is also great, u can cut with it, u can open with it. u can do with it photography )

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[vic vic]

hi francisco

 

ya, i think u mean r.kappa.

anyway, fill frame or not... one should ask him/herself - what is your object, what u want "to say". when u use words - the describe something.. they have some meaning to u and to listener. it is more or less the same in photography - photos can be like visual words. so u ask yourself what i want to say. it is ok to want to take a pic of something that exites u but ask yourself what is it. what is your subject. how valuable is the surrounding/evnvironment of subject. maybe u want to put subject in its real life environement and context, maybe contrary, u want to isolate your subject making it some idealistic exposition, or otherwise some intime insight close-look. u ask yourself what u want to say, what u feel when u exited and how u express yourself. fuck normotiveness - compose this way or that way - thats a shit. give it PACE of your thought and of your feelings. use visual elemnts of photo to denote and refer to your mental state of mind and your imaganition this way or another, or your impression of the phenomena that accures infront of u in real happening and bit of life.

 

at some point - u stop asking and thinking for awhile. your expression comes intuitivly. then u r recharged again and start thinking of new stuff etc etc.... it is a process... mental process

 

ah forgot to mention... when i say - ask yourself what is your subject interest.. i dont mean only to the physical properties of what u see. the subject can be more abstract idea like happiness. so when u see a little child happy, your subject physically is childs face, but the main grand subject of interest is actually happiness or what ever he makes that gaves him that hapy mood. people usually think about subject as something physical. it is not true. physical is the visual material through which u expose your main subject - its properties, or your impressions.

[fotografr]

fotografr it's your inability to accept the purpose of a critique that is the worry here. saying that you are wealthy due to photo stuff is probably the wierdest thing written in terms of justification of critique I have read I to had to laugh

 

You missed the entire point. That was not about me--it was about photography as a profession. I was simply countering Stefan's statement than it isn't possible to make money in this business. I realized completely when I posted the comment that some would twist the meaning and turn it into ridicule, and sure enough you and Victor did not disappoint me.

[fotografr]

Brent,

 

1. everyone is right for him or herself. but there are still some "rules" what makes a storytelling picture. it takes many years too learn how to "see". what maybe 5 years ago for me was a great picture today may be boring. why? in these years we have learned, we got more information....

the Dafur example, sent it to experienced photojournalists lets say to Magnum or VII, if your arrive with the close up they will send you back home. if you come with the wider shot you will sell it. the wider shot tells much more about the whole situation then the close up, the use of space and room, the placement of the persons in the picture, the cloth of the people.....

 

2. so, what we want? this phone answering machine comments? "wonderful again" even on our mediocre pictures? what is this, 5min satisfaction until we upload the next one? how many members has this forum, several thousand? do we want them all to comment in the way we would like? I think thats impossible. I still believe that minds are free. do we need police man beside every single picture who controls what people are saying?

do you rip off the pages from your guest book, who contain negative comments about your work, when your exhibition (in the real gallery world) is over?

 

wish you a nice day, regards S.

 

Stefan--

 

I appreciate your comments, even though I don't completely agree with them. It's obvious we have very different perspectives on why we take pictures. Your approach is carefully measured and your end goal with every image is to have something you can show in a gallery. That's fine, and you do it well. Your photographs are remarkable and probably sell quite well. I have other objectives with my personal work. I leave room in my life for simple, imperfect snapshots like the one I posted. I have no intention to sell an image like that, but I enjoy the process and sometimes others enjoy the results. In this case, I gave a print to the woman in the photograph and it greatly pleased her. For me, that's all the reason I need. (see below)

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[Guest Stefan R.]

I was simply countering Stefan's statement than it isn't possible to make money in this business.

 

Brent, did you read what I wrote? I never said that it is not possible to make money with photography. I wrote that it is very difficult with photojournalism in these times. please don't turn things around now. regards

[Guest stnami]

Ah it was your brother that was the boastfull foto guy gotcha baby

 

I realized completely when I posted the comment that some would twist the meaning and turn it into ridicule,

the usual poor whoefull Brent, I didn't mean it that way, don't be mean to me,......... well it's almost midnight it's pissin down rain the ward is quiet so me and Mick are going out to mow the lawn have a quiet jar or two and hope that those pesky ABC journos who are drying out don't come down and pinch our piss:cool:

[fotografr]

Brent, did you read what I wrote? I never said that it is not possible to make money with photography. I wrote that it is very difficult with photojournalism in these times. please don't turn things around now. regards

 

"who wants to live from photojournalism in these days? all these jobs get a crappy pay, go to "lightstalkers" and read about the problems journalists have to sell their work, who wants to sell his work for crappy 40-70 euros? they have no money to pay the rent, to pay the health insurance, the insurance of their car. ect ect..... no thank you."

[Guest Stefan R.]

 

well, thats a very positive picture Brent

 

ok guys, have fun, I am leaving, if somebody is in St. Petersburg, send me a PM, we can have a beer and fight about photography

[Guest Stefan R.]

"who wants to live from photojournalism in these days? all these jobs get a crappy pay, go to "lightstalkers" and read about the problems journalists have to sell their work, who wants to sell his work for crappy 40-70 euros? they have no money to pay the rent, to pay the health insurance, the insurance of their car. ect ect..... no thank you."

 

Brent, and where do you read that it is not possible to make money with photojournalism? I am talking about the problems photographer have... not that it is not possible to make money.

 

""who wants to live from photojournalism in these days?""

 

WHO WANTS

 

not ONE CANNOT

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[martinop]

Brent - I enjoy (the lady's expression) the shot of the lady holding the picture that you took of her in the farmer's market. Thanks for posting.