New Leica M 240 follow-up in 2017 : The speculations.

[ianman]

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A dumbed-down M...

 

I believe a dumbed-down M is precisely one which looses it's uniqueness in the world of all-the-same ten thousand cameras that fill the supermarket shelves. It seems that people just want the exact same shit as everybody else but with a red dot. No uniqueness, nothing different, nothing special.

 

I cannot for the life of me understand why somebody who wants to shoot 4K videos buys a Leica M instead of a video camera.

 

The M, is probably the last system on earth that isn't feature-obese. Please let it remain so. There are plenty of other systems that can use M lenses, and some even include a red dot too.

Edited December 15, 2016 by ianman

[Paulus]

Really I'm not expecting AF lenses to be the size of the M lenses but they don't have to be as gargantuan as the SL lenses and the bodies can be relatively compact. Leica, after all, are the masters of quality in compact form.

If you read the latest book from erwin Puts, you'll have an idea why the lenses are so big.

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[Rick]

I cannot for the life of me understand why somebody who wants to shoot 4K videos buys a Leica M instead of a video camera.

 

 

Because, you can put M lenses on it and the video looks soooo good with these lenses.

 

Because, I don't want to buy and carry a second video camera.

 

Because, the video on the iPhone is crap.

 

Because, the sensor can do it anyway if it is already doing EVF video.

 

Because, 4K is just the next format so why not upgrade it from 2K

 

Because, Leica has already designed it in the M240, why not carry it over and not disable it.

 

 

Rick

[rosuna]

I don't care about video, but I understand others do.

 

Anyway, these rumors may be pointing to "no video button" and not to "no video function". There is no reason for not providing the option of video, with an option in the menu. It is just firmware.

 

I will but one if the total size is that of the M7. That is the key "feature" for me. Better image quality is welcome as well.

[Rick]

rosuna,

 

I don't care about doing professional video.  I don't care about the dedicated button.

 

But, I like the feature now and again.  I admit that I don't use it often in my M240 but that is mostly because the rolling shutter is so bad I gave up.  

 

I wouldn't mind getting a goof EVF for the usual peripheral reasons.  I hope for 11fps because that is the processing speed of the SL and S and that is why they have 80ms blackout times.  That is crucial to using the EVF for me. 

 

Rick

[Tmuussoni]

The fact remains that less pixels are better to get more dynamic range and cleaner high isos i guess otherwise my A7s mod would have more than 12MP i suspect.

Go to the following page:

https://www.dxomark.com/Cameras/Compare/Side-by-side/Sony-A7R-II-versus-Sony-A7S___1035_949

Click on Measurements and then Dynamic range. A7r II has better dynamic range up to ISO 6400 than A7s. After ISO 6400 A7s has slight edge, but that is partly because A7r II is optimized for low ISO and A7s for high ISO. So like I said again it depends what you compare. BSI sensors really make some nice improvements here. High ISO is also much closer than you think. Up res the A7s image to 42 MP and then compare and the difference is so close! The details still look so much better on A7r II thanks to 42 MP.

 

[lct]

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Well i don't read much reviews anymore but all things equal a big pixel will always be better than a small one according to my grandmother . In fact when i compared the A7r2 mod to the A7s mod, the latter looked so much better with M lenses that i did not hesitate i must say. Now it's just me of course but if i need more pixels i will certainly consider the A7r2 mod or its successor unless future Leicas meet my requirements to the point i don't need Sony bodies anymore. I don't hold my breath but never say never . 

Edited December 16, 2016 by lct

[IkarusJohn]

Why don't your M cameras meet your requirements; you have 5 of them (if your profile is up to date). You've posted about why the SL doesn't work for you, but what is missing from your M collection?

[lct]

Why don't your M cameras meet your requirements; you have 5 of them (if your profile is up to date). You've posted about why the SL doesn't work for you, but what is missing from your M collection?

 

Well i have always used both RF and TTL cameras, often from Leica but also from Canon, Nikon, Panasonic, Sony and so on. As far as digital RFs are concerned, i miss a faster, smaller and quieter body than my M240, especially in LV mode where i find it almost unusable now. As for TTL cameras, the SL is too big for me and i don't like its ergonomics at all but again it's just me and i do hope that Leica will meet my requirements in a not too long future... 

[Rick]

Well i don't read much reviews anymore but all things equal a big pixel will always be better than a small one according to my grandmother . In fact when i compared the A7r2 mod to the A7s mod, the latter looked so much better with M lenses that i did not hesitate i must say. Now it's just me of course but if i need more pixels i will certainly consider the A7r2 mod or its successor unless future Leicas meet my requirements to the point i don't need Sony bodies anymore. I don't hold my breath but never say never . 

 

 

I will say that I'm getting kind of tired of the Sony thing here while we are trying to stay somewhat on topic. I'm not sure where some obscure modification of another brand's camera sensor helps us sort out what is going on with the new M.  

 

You have stated this almost every other time someone posts about the new M.  The mod. doesn't affect the micro lenses or the in-camera correction.  It just removes the sensor glass and totally screws up the color and UV blocking ability of the sensor.  

 

We get it.  We understand.  With all due respect.

 

So, back to the discussion of the M10.

 

Rick

[lct]

I don't share your point of view about UV and colors but i was responding to another LUF member if you don't mind so please feel free to ignore my posts if they don't match your tastes or opinions.

[Rick]

I don't share your point of view about UV and colors but i was responding to another LUF member if you don't mind so please feel free to ignore my posts if they don't match your tastes or opinions.

 

 

Ha.  You're a closet Sony fan boy.  You've turned to the dark side.  

 

RickLeica

[Rick]

The main limitation of the M system (manual focus lenses) is its more important strong point (size of the system). Leica should make the most of it.

 

 

I missed this the first time I read it. 

 

Yes, small lenses and small M10.  Better VF/RF to utilize the manual focus lenses.  Simpler operation.  Faster and better processing.  Better images - sensor and processing.  

 

This could be a return to the essence of photography.

 

 

Rick

[jmahto]

If next M doesn't have LV/EVF then I think Leica is trying to milk it's consumer base by forcing them to buy two cameras. This strategy may be counterproductive since there are other choices in the market for a compact system. Only time will tell.

[jaapv]

rosuna,

 

I don't care about doing professional video.  I don't care about the dedicated button.

 

But, I like the feature now and again.  I admit that I don't use it often in my M240 but that is mostly because the rolling shutter is so bad I gave up.  

 

I wouldn't mind getting a goof EVF for the usual peripheral reasons.  I hope for 11fps because that is the processing speed of the SL and S and that is why they have 80ms blackout times.  That is crucial to using the EVF for me. 

 

Rick

Indeed. There are two schools of thought here. The members who see the Leica M as a Gestalt, which means that anything not adding to the pure concept should be rejected, and those that see the camera as a preferred tool to use, which means that anything adding to the usefulness should be welcomed. Either view should be respected, but I belong to the latter group.

 

Video is a good example. Basically the Leica M is meant to be a travel and reportage go-anywhere camera. That means that it will be in situations that will make the user prefer a video image, yet not have access to a video camera. To have the ability to capture the moment  in that situation is a useful addition. I've used this example before. Sitting in the dark on a remote beach there will be no video camera shop within 500 miles, and yet this opportunity presents itself. (BTW, I tried an iPhone in this situation as well and my result could only be described as pathetic)

The M240 captured the scene perfectly for my purposes, proving that the camera was up to the intended use. I would have missed it with the M9 or the supposed M10.

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_m5ckWSAzB8&list=PLf9HyPhs_uRtdtTPhQXtjIAvk-l6y_uV1

 

Would a professional video camera have done even better? Probably. Or a video-enabled DSLR? Possibly. But we are not on this forum because we want to carry  video systems as well when out with our camera, nor do we like carrying an additional DSLR when we can avoid it. The idea of the M is to have one in a smal(lish) bag with the lenses one anticipates using and it is up to the camera to capture anything we wish to record. LV, EVF and Video have doubled the usefulness of the camera within its niche and for me there is no going back.

[lct]

Ha.  You're a closet Sony fan boy.  You've turned to the dark side.  

RickLeica

 

He he dark side for bodies and bright side for lenses perhaps but my M3 and M6J remain my favorite RFs ever and my R4s has been my favorite TTL for a long time before being dethroned by the frightful A7s mod.

LctVader

Edited December 16, 2016 by lct

[lct]

Indeed. There are two schools of thought here. The members who see the Leica M as a Gestalt, which means that anything not adding to the pure concept should be rejected, and those that see the camera as a preferred tool to use, which means that anything adding to the usefulness should be welcomed. Either view should be respected, but I belong to the latter group.

Video is a good example. Basically the Leica M is meant to be a travel and reportage go-anywhere camera. That means that it will be in situations that will make the user prefer a video image, yet not have access to a video camera. To have the ability to capture the moment in that situation is a useful addition. [...]

 

+1 but there are also two schools of body perhaps... I find hard to believe that a successor to the M240 may not do video. As for a successor to the M9, why not?

[ianman]

Yes, small lenses and small M10.  Better VF/RF to utilize the manual focus lenses.  Simpler operation.  Faster and better processing.  Better images - sensor and processing.  

 

This could be a return to the essence of photography.

 

 

Isn't this exactly what some of us have been saying ??? 

[david strachan]

I do love reading this post...it's hilarious.

 

So many sending a message say.." no we don't want another M, we love the typ 240, and you can't improve on this, so I'm not going to buy your next model".  Great news for the manufacturers...

 

And all the guessing wanabees...who cares.  It's my last M...does the job!...

 

cheers...

Edited December 16, 2016 by david strachan

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[ianman]

David,

 

I don't think anybody wrote that they don't want a new M or that improvements can't be made. It's more a discussion about how we, as M users, see the future of Leica M range.

 

Personally I am happy with the M9 but would be equally happy to see a new and improved M with a better VF/RF. Improved high ISO handling would be appealing too. More speed and better LCD, I'm not really bothered about but I wouldn't mind. I'm all for improvements and addition as long as they are related to taking photographs, which is the purpose of a photographic tool.

 

So even though I am personally uninterested in bloating the M with non photographic features, I am very much in the market for an improved version of the M9.  And if that doesn't come... then true, I will say with my M9. A camera for life... I have no problem with that.