Leica Film Odyssey for a beginner

[Guest NEIL-D-WILLIAMS]

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On another note. When you take a film into a shop to get it developed what are they expecting you to ask for. What I mean is obviously they are going to do the developing for you, but I'm going to need more than just a negative to see what pictures are keepers and what pictures I want to get scanned into RAW files. So what do I ask the shop for ?????

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You either let them scan the the film or you order prints or both. Make sure they give you the film back as well. There are labs that think you don't need the negatives once you have the prints.

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[Guest NEIL-D-WILLIAMS]

You either let them scan the the film or you order prints or both. Make sure they give you the film back as well. There are labs that think you don't need the negatives once you have the prints.

so for example would I be better off just getting 36 small 5x4 prints so that I can look at them in the shop and decide I like These 6 prints then tell them to go ahead and scan those 6

Something like that???

[Guest NEIL-D-WILLIAMS]

so for example would I be better off just getting 36 small 5x4 prints so that I can look at them in the shop and decide I like These 6 prints then tell them to go ahead and scan those 6

Something like that???

ive heard the word contact sheet. Is that the same thing??

My gut feeling is that a picture the size of a passport picture ain't going to cut it for me

[Doc Henry]

Here is how we do in France or other countries I think  (I have an example in VN)

The film is developed and according to your request, they pass on their professional scanner

a Noritsu automaton (with automatic correction) or another automaton brand Fuji or Kodak and

print a contact sheet with the  pictures above and if you want register them on a CD in Jpeg but

not in Raw (too voluminous for a CD). but it will be expensive , better scan yourself

H

Edited March 27, 2016 by Doc Henry

[rpavich]

ive heard the word contact sheet. Is that the same thing??

My gut feeling is that a picture the size of a passport picture ain't going to cut it for me

You won't get a contact sheet, but this place on eBay will develop your film and return the negs in sleeves, along with 4x6 prints for a very reasonable price.

 

http://www.ebay.com/sch/blackriverpower/m.html?_nkw=&_armrs=1&_ipg=&_from=

[hepcat]

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I spent over 30K on a Leica S with 3 lenses and still take crappy pictures with that.............. Every now and then I get a keeper and I put it on my website "happy days"

 

 

Ok that does give some perspective.  And you're right, Neil, that Leica S is a POS.  I think you should just send it to me and I'll see if I can make use of it as a doorstop or something.  <grin>

 

On another note. When you take a film into a shop to get it developed what are they expecting you to ask for. What I mean is obviously they are going to do the developing for you, but I'm going to need more than just a negative to see what pictures are keepers and what pictures I want to get scanned into RAW files. So what do I ask the shop for ?????

You won't get RAW files... those come out of a camera (or .dng with Leica.)  You'll either get a .jpg or .tiff depending on who does the scanning.  .jpgs on a disc are the equivalent of the old "contact sheets.)  They're low-quality scans of the negative, from which you can decide what to print.

 

so for example would I be better off just getting 36 small 5x4 prints so that I can look at them in the shop and decide I like These 6 prints then tell them to go ahead and scan those 6

Something like that???

Machine prints from a 35mm negative from most photofinishers will be either 3 1/2x5 or 4x6 which is more-or-less full-frame.  Actually, what you'd probably do is look at the scanned proofs, and then have the negatives printed that you like.

 

ive heard the word contact sheet. Is that the same thing??

My gut feeling is that a picture the size of a passport picture ain't going to cut it for me

The scans, proof prints, and contact sheets all serve the same purpose; to view a positive image in a larger size.  35mm negatives are 24mm high by 36mm wide; roughly an inch by an inch and a half, or half the size of a passport photo.  They can be useful, but most folks use a loupe magnifier to see what's there.  They are called "contact sheets" because the film is laid directly onto a sheet of 8x10 printing paper and then the negatives are exposed onto the paper yielding a 1:1 positive image of the negative; exactly the size of the negative...  36x24mm.

 

This is what a 35mm contact sheet would look like:

 

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-Fdo6MeB9uUo/UcNGxmwMLsI/AAAAAAAAiAc/Cxm2iHsiuvE/s1600/Marilyn+Monroe+at+home+in+Hollywood+by+Alfred+Eisenstaedt,+1953+-+contact+sheet+(4).jpg

 

(borrowed from Alfred Eisenstadt of Marilyn Monroe)

Edited March 27, 2016 by hepcat

[EoinC]

Mate I dont do books...........I enjoy reading articles on the web about photography, I enjoy chatting on forums about photography, but most of all I like looking at photos on the web 1000's of them, paying attention to competition, lighting, camera settings (if the show them) etc etc............. I just don't do books

You did ask for easy reading, and some of these are picture books. You can pretend they aren't really books at all

[MarkP]

Arrrggghhhh! I'd fail miserably at that, but great suggestion.

 

It's easier than it sounds. Have been doing it for years.

 

Make sure to wind the film off slowly enough you can appreciate when the film has come off the takeup spool but not yet fully rewound into the cassette. You can both hear it snap off the spool and feel the change in tension (necessary in noisy environments).

 

I also write the frame number to advance it to when next loaded onto  the tab of film left out of the film cassette  (number of exposures when I wound it off + 2).

 

Remember if using an SLR you should cover the eyepiece to stop any light leak. I don't always trust my lens cap to be perfectly lightproof so I also advance the film at minimum aperture and fastest shutter speed with the end of the lens more securely covered - such as pressed hard against my jeans or equivalent.

 

Have never had a problem reusing a partly exposed roll of film.

[MarkP]

Neil, you can get out and just shoot film. Most people did it for years before digital. What the others are basically saying is that without some experience your keeper rate will be very low.

 

1. Meter carefully for the main subject.

 

2. Always better slightly overexposed than underexposed if the lighting is more complex. There is little if any usable information in a significantly underexposed negative. In digital terms expose to the right, rather than the left, as it's harder to recover from the shadows.

Film has much more exposure attitude than digital but you can still push the friendship too far. An underexposed negative will usually give a crap scan/print.

 

3. If you have a really good photograph and complex lighting, bracket 1.5-2.0 stops each side of what you think is the correct exposure. May give you a better result and will teach you a lot about exposing film when you see the results.

 

3. Stick with one B&W and one colour film such as Tri X and Portra 400 (and an ND filter if very bright) till you've got the feel for them. 100 ISO film gives beautiful results but even with fast glass can be limiting.

 

4. There's nothing like only having 36 exposures in the camera to focus the mind. You may shoot 36 digital photos in 10 minutes but not get through 36 film exposures in an afternoons shooting.

 

5. Be prepared that in 35mm format, even with perfectly exposed 100 ISO film, there is a lot of grain compared with noise you would see in digital, especially your Leica S. You're using film to get that grain and texture, albeit different with different films.

 

and I agree with the others - I shoot to print my best photos. Very satisfying seeing the final print framed up on the wall.

 

Mark

Edited March 27, 2016 by MarkP

[pop]

so for example would I be better off just getting 36 small 5x4 prints so that I can look at them in the shop and decide I like These 6 prints then tell them to go ahead and scan those 6

Something like that???

That would work. But given that most labs routinely scan entire films as well, you'd probably be best off when you just had the film developed and scanned at one go. Some labs charge per scanned frame and some offer different qualities (resolutions and depths). For your first films, select the highest quality on offer so you can see where the grain starts to become visible. 

 

This will return results you can look at within the shortest time, I think.

 

Two afterthoughts.

 

Some labs scan to media different from CDs, such as USB sticks or SD cards. Might be useful for large scan jobs and solid state media are more robust than CDs.

 

Handling film is something you are not accustomed to, hence it may not be obvious that the negatives are very sensitive to fingerprints and dust. Do not ever take them out of their sleeves unless you absolutely have to. Do not ever touch the image areas with your bare fingers. Touch the edges of the strips only. But do hold them firmly or they will fall into the soup or whichever place is least suited for negatives.

[EoinC]

so for example would I be better off just getting 36 small 5x4 prints so that I can look at them in the shop and decide I like These 6 prints then tell them to go ahead and scan those 6

Something like that???

This is what you do in KL, Neil, in Roughneck terms (I know, because I used to be one). This is your Procedure, and I hope you hold a JSA before starting, and another if there are any changes to the job as it progresses:

1. On Saturday, after smoko, you load your film in your very nice M6 TTL.
2. Once the film has taken up on the sprockets, you close the camera up and wind the "Quick Wind Lever" and shoot until you get to Frame "0" on the counter beside the shutter button. As you do this, check that the "Angled Rewind Crank"l on the top left of the camera is turning as you wind the Quick Wind Lever.
3. Set the dial on the back to the "box speed" of the film you put in (Tri-X = 400; Fujifilm Neopan Acros 100 = 100). Now your camera's light meter is adjusted for your film.
4. You head out of KL up the AH2 to Penang. This, like scanning, may take some time, so I hope you filled up during smoko.
5. You find something you want to photograph.
6. Wind on to Frame No. 1.
7. Turn the shutter speed dial on the top to somewhere from 1/60 - 1/1000s.
8. Looking through the viewfinder, point the centre of the frame at something that is fairly neutral in the scene (not a highlight and not a deep shadow).
9. Lightly press the shutter button...I did say lightly...You may want to take those work gloves off before doing this.
10. Down in the bottom of the viewfinder, you will see a red arrow / triangle and / or a red dot.
11. If it's a dot on it's own, the aperture and shutter combination you have selected are on the money for a good regular shot.
12. If it's a right-pointing triangle, or a dot with a triangle to the left, to get the same as (11) above, you need to move the top of the aperture ring on the lens and / or the front of the shutter dial to the right to achieve the same thing (ie open up the aperture / slow down the shutter speed).
13. If it's a left-pointing triangle, or a dot with a triangle to the right, to get the same as (11) above, you need to move the top of the aperture ring on the lens and / or the front of the shutter dial to the left to achieve the same thing (ie stop down the aperture / increase the shutter speed).
14. Click.
15. Wind on to Frame No. 2, and rinse and repeat until you feel some resistance to winding on. At this point, DO NOT reach for the Pipe Tongs or a Cheater Bar. The camera is submitting a Stop Card, telling you that you have come to the end of the film.
16. Check the frame counter, and bask in the glory of having shot your first film.
17. Find a small coffee shop and order up a Tiger while you sit and check what you have shot on the LCD on the back of the...hmmm, no, looks like that's a different Procedure.
18. Find a small coffee shop and order up a Tiger while you push the little lever below the "Leica M6" label on the front of the camera across towards the "R", which allows you to rewind the film.
19. Flip out the little crank arm on the Angled Rewind Crank on the top left of the camera, and crank away until the camera's engine starts, or at least until the resistance has ceased, and a few cranks more. The resistance ceases when the film comes free of the sprockets, and a few more winds will have it safely back inside it's cartridge.
20. Remove the base plate and drop the exposed film cartridge out. At this point there will be no film visible.
21. Take out another roll of film, drop your exposed film cartridge into an empty canister, and repeat all of the above (except driving back up the AH2 to Penang).
22. After you have completed the Penang trip, drive back down the AH2 to KL.
23. Go in to Bang Bang Geng (or another shop that does film developing and scanning).
24. Hand over your suitcase full of exposed films, and ask for "develop and 16-base scan". They may provide TIFF files if asked, or they may only be JPEG's. It doesn't really matter much, as there is generally very little, if any, editing to do to the digital files.
25. They will tell you that they would be ready on Day X, but it's a holiday in Y State, because there's always a holiday going on somewhere.
26. Go away, filled with impatient anticipation.
27. Return on Day Z and pick up your negatives (should be in folders) and your CD of scanned images.
28. Return home and load the images, trying to remember to put at least the film type in as a keyword - There is no EXIF data to rely on.
29. Look at the images and see what they do for you. What worked and why? What was a dismal failure and why?
30. Do not be concerned about grain and resolution - It's light and shadow that you're looking for, not pixels.
31. Give yourself time to absorb the images - revisit them after a day or two. Where digital images may look less impressive when you go back to them, film images often grow on you, sort of like fungus or mould.
32. Armed with newfound knowledge and expectations, go forth and shoot some more. After a while, emulsions will become your friends, and you will see scenes in terms of how they would represent them.

Many will disagree, but I suggest you stick with B&W until you are happy with what you see, and can reasonably consistently shoot a roll of images that produce what you wanted. Colour film is fantastic, but it will mask exposure issues if you don't learn how to deal with them first. B&W is simple and, somehow, honest.

 

Oh, yes, Step 33 - Enjoy the whole process, including the waiting.

[MarkP]

I agree with Pip about the negatives. Be careful even sliding them out of their storage files.

 

A good lab should cut and sully the negatives to you in 6-exposure strips in A4 negative file storage sheets. Some of the crappier labs handle negatives badly so if there are lost of scratches, and you know they're not from dirt/dust from your camera or film cassette felt then get a new lab. Took me a while to find a lab that really treated my negatives well.

 

Or, as others here would advise, print your own. Not something I have the time or inclination to do again just yet.

 

And you really do need a new scanner. This is a new and complex workflow unless you get the negative printed directly without a digital stage.

Edited March 27, 2016 by MarkP

[EoinC]

...And you really do need a new scanner...

But maybe not just yet.

[hepcat]

In the mean time you can check out my other stuff here

 

Neil, I missed this until just now.  I just looked at your website.  You're sandbaggin' us here, Shipmate.  Hot damn, you're good.  VERY good. 

 

So, forget everything I said.  Here's the deal.  Set the ISO of the meter to the film speed.  Set the shutter speed to as close as the ISO value as you can (if you're shooting ISO 400 film, use 1/250th or 1/500th depending on your evaluation of the brightness of the light.  Shoot at f/16 in bright sunlight, and open up for lower light levels.  Or adjust the shutter speed/f-stop as appropriate. Instead of dialing the ISO down, ('cause you can't) use a Neutral Density filter when you need less DOF or a slower shutter speed.  If you use the meter, find something that will meter as a neutral gray.  That should keep the highlights from blocking up and allow for and keep detail in  the shadows.  As was said before, you're better off over-exposing than under.  You may block up the highlights a little, but you can recover those. If the shadows (film base) are clear from under-exposure, you're screwed.  There's nothing to recover in clear film base. 

 

Yellow filters enhance the contrast of the sky and clouds... the deeper the yellow the more the increase in density of the sky (on the print.)  That comes at a light penalty though... from about a half-stop to up to two stops depending on how dense the filter is (orange, for example...)  but as I see you dial the sky's density up quite a bit in LR, you'll want to do that manually using filters during shooting.  Each filter will have a number on it indicating it's "filter factor"

 

Filter factors are explained easily and concisely in Wikipedia here:  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Filter_factor

 

Basically treat the camera like it's digital with a fixed ISO that doesn't float and just 36 frames before you need to reload.  Compose in camera, and make every attempt to get the shot right when you shoot it as you won't have as much of an opportunity to "fix" things in PP as you do with native digital.

 

You'll do fine.

Edited March 27, 2016 by hepcat

[rpavich]

Neil, I missed this until just now.  I just looked at your website.  You're sandbaggin' us here, Shipmate.  Hot damn, you're good.  VERY good.

No kidding! hahaha...someone's holding out on us.

[MarkP]

This is what you do in KL, Neil, in Roughneck terms (I know, because I used to be one). This is your Procedure, and I hope you hold a JSA before starting, and another if there are any changes to the job as it progresses:

1. On Saturday, after smoko, you load your film in your very nice M6 TTL.
2. Once the film has taken up on the sprockets, you close the camera up and wind the "Quick Wind Lever" and shoot until you get to Frame "0" on the counter beside the shutter button. As you do this, check that the "Angled Rewind Crank"l on the top left of the camera is turning as you wind the Quick Wind Lever.
3. Set the dial on the back to the "box speed" of the film you put in (Tri-X = 400; Fujifilm Neopan Acros 100 = 100). Now your camera's light meter is adjusted for your film.
4. You head out of KL up the AH2 to Penang. This, like scanning, may take some time, so I hope you filled up during smoko.
5. You find something you want to photograph.
6. Wind on to Frame No. 1.
7. Turn the shutter speed dial on the top to somewhere from 1/60 - 1/1000s.
8. Looking through the viewfinder, point the centre of the frame at something that is fairly neutral in the scene (not a highlight and not a deep shadow).
9. Lightly press the shutter button...I did say lightly...You may want to take those work gloves off before doing this.
10. Down in the bottom of the viewfinder, you will see a red arrow / triangle and / or a red dot.
11. If it's a dot on it's own, the aperture and shutter combination you have selected are on the money for a good regular shot.
12. If it's a right-pointing triangle, or a dot with a triangle to the left, to get the same as (11) above, you need to move the top of the aperture ring on the lens and / or the front of the shutter dial to the right to achieve the same thing (ie open up the aperture / slow down the shutter speed).
13. If it's a left-pointing triangle, or a dot with a triangle to the right, to get the same as (11) above, you need to move the top of the aperture ring on the lens and / or the front of the shutter dial to the left to achieve the same thing (ie stop down the aperture / increase the shutter speed).
14. Click.
15. Wind on to Frame No. 2, and rinse and repeat until you feel some resistance to winding on. At this point, DO NOT reach for the Pipe Tongs or a Cheater Bar. The camera is submitting a Stop Card, telling you that you have come to the end of the film.
16. Check the frame counter, and bask in the glory of having shot your first film.
17. Find a small coffee shop and order up a Tiger while you sit and check what you have shot on the LCD on the back of the...hmmm, no, looks like that's a different Procedure.
18. Find a small coffee shop and order up a Tiger while you push the little lever below the "Leica M6" label on the front of the camera across towards the "R", which allows you to rewind the film.
19. Flip out the little crank arm on the Angled Rewind Crank on the top left of the camera, and crank away until the camera's engine starts, or at least until the resistance has ceased, and a few cranks more. The resistance ceases when the film comes free of the sprockets, and a few more winds will have it safely back inside it's cartridge.
20. Remove the base plate and drop the exposed film cartridge out. At this point there will be no film visible.
21. Take out another roll of film, drop your exposed film cartridge into an empty canister, and repeat all of the above (except driving back up the AH2 to Penang).
22. After you have completed the Penang trip, drive back down the AH2 to KL.
23. Go in to Bang Bang Geng (or another shop that does film developing and scanning).
24. Hand over your suitcase full of exposed films, and ask for "develop and 16-base scan". They may provide TIFF files if asked, or they may only be JPEG's. It doesn't really matter much, as there is generally very little, if any, editing to do to the digital files.
25. They will tell you that they would be ready on Day X, but it's a holiday in Y State, because there's always a holiday going on somewhere.
26. Go away, filled with impatient anticipation.
27. Return on Day Z and pick up your negatives (should be in folders) and your CD of scanned images.
28. Return home and load the images, trying to remember to put at least the film type in as a keyword - There is no EXIF data to rely on.
29. Look at the images and see what they do for you. What worked and why? What was a dismal failure and why?
30. Do not be concerned about grain and resolution - It's light and shadow that you're looking for, not pixels.
31. Give yourself time to absorb the images - revisit them after a day or two. Where digital images may look less impressive when you go back to them, film images often grow on you, sort of like fungus or mould.
32. Armed with newfound knowledge and expectations, go forth and shoot some more. After a while, emulsions will become your friends, and you will see scenes in terms of how they would represent them.

Many will disagree, but I suggest you stick with B&W until you are happy with what you see, and can reasonably consistently shoot a roll of images that produce what you wanted. Colour film is fantastic, but it will mask exposure issues if you don't learn how to deal with them first. B&W is simple and, somehow, honest.

 

Oh, yes, Step 33 - Enjoy the whole process, including the waiting.

 

 

I'm exhausted just reading all that...  

[EoinC]

I'm exhausted just reading all that...  

I am, too, Mark, but then I didn't read it until now

[Guest NEIL-D-WILLIAMS]

It's easier than it sounds. Have been doing it for years.

 

Make sure to wind the film off slowly enough you can appreciate when the film has come off the takeup spool but not yet fully rewound into the cassette. You can both hear it snap off the spool and feel the change in tension (necessary in noisy environments).

 

I also write the frame number to advance it to when next loaded onto  the tab of film left out of the film cassette  (number of exposures when I wound it off + 2).

 

Remember if using an SLR you should cover the eyepiece to stop any light leak. I don't always trust my lens cap to be perfectly lightproof so I also advance the film at minimum aperture and fastest shutter speed with the end of the lens more securely covered - such as pressed hard against my jeans or equivalent.

 

Have never had a problem reusing a partly exposed roll of film.

 

Good morning

Mark

You mentioned something there about when you rewind the film, you cover the lens or put a lens cap on. I didn't realise that? Just as well you did or I would have just switched the leaver to R and rewind the film.

Cheers Neil

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Hallo,

Look here: Interesting Leica gear

[Guest NEIL-D-WILLIAMS]

Neil, you can get out and just shoot film. Most people did it for years before digital. What the others are basically saying is that without some experience your keeper rate will be very low.

 

1. Meter carefully for the main subject. ​I Think I got that bit mate. I actually used to do that with my M in difficult light, I would grab the exposure I wanted say at the bottom of the picture, half press, recompose, then take the picture.........same same right?

 

2. Always better slightly overexposed than underexposed if the lighting is more complex. There is little if any usable information in a significantly underexposed negative. In digital terms expose to the right, rather than the left, as it's harder to recover from the shadows.

Film has much more exposure attitude than digital but you can still push the friendship too far. An underexposed negative will usually give a crap scan/print. Okay got that bit too

 

3. If you have a really good photograph and complex lighting, bracket 1.5-2.0 stops each side of what you think is the correct exposure. May give you a better result and will teach you a lot about exposing film when you see the results. I'll remember that bit

 

3. Stick with one B&W and one colour film such as Tri X and Portra 400 (and an ND filter if very bright) till you've got the feel for them. 100 ISO film gives beautiful results but even with fast glass can be limiting.Mark I really like B&W so will just stick with the Txi 400 until I get the first couple of rolls under my belt........I'll have the Q with me for any color stuff

 

4. There's nothing like only having 36 exposures in the camera to focus the mind. You may shoot 36 digital photos in 10 minutes but not get through 36 film exposures in an afternoons shooting. 3 seconds on safari       

 

5. Be prepared that in 35mm format, even with perfectly exposed 100 ISO film, there is a lot of grain compared with noise you would see in digital, especially your Leica S. You're using film to get that grain and texture, albeit different with different films.

 

and I agree with the others - I shoot to print my best photos. Very satisfying seeing the final print framed up on the wall.    

 

Mark