Leica Film Odyssey for a beginner

[EoinC]

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I also use a 35mm Summilux ASPH as my main lens on the M6 TTL. I can't remember the last time I used it at f/1.4, but I guess it's handy to have if you're going to be shooting at night. In those same lighting conditions, though, you may find the rangefinder focus difficult to set, particularly with that shallow a depth of field. I'm usually shooting between f/2.8 and f/8, and only use larger apertures if shutter speed is getting too low to be reliable handheld.

In most daylight shooting, ISO 100 films will give you hand-holdable shutter speeds at mid-range apertures, and ISO 400 films will give you plenty of scope on shutter speed and aperture. ISO 800 films will have you stopped down at 1/1000s on clear days in the Malaysia, but can be more useful once you get into the evenings.

[EoinC]

Cheers mate.............I like the M size and looks over the R so I will stick with the M thanks

Are you in KL or Singapore??

I'm in both (and in many other Countries). I have an apartment in Singapore, but am spending most weeks in KL at the moment, and shall be moving back there next month. Edited March 26, 2016 by EoinC

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[Guest NEIL-D-WILLIAMS]

Is the same shutter speed rule of thumb the same with digital and film. i.e. FL35 minimum shutter 1/35 or better still 1/60

[Joshua Lowe]

So for example if you set the film speed say 400 you dial in ISO 400 and the top mark just goes wherever opposite to ISO 400 is............sorry for all the dumbass questions but I really don't have a clue and want to learn the basics so that I don't look like a real plonker when I go and see the camera :)

 

Correct.  But you'll find you may set the ISO differently to suit your style.  You'll hear about photographers "pushing" Tri-X 400 by metering it at 800 or 1600.  When you push film it needs to be processed differently so make sure to tell the lab.  I think you'll like how it looks.

Edited March 26, 2016 by Joshua Lowe

[EoinC]

Can someone point me to some EASY reading on shooting Leica film cameras, I am not a complete plonker around cameras but have NEVER shot a film camera so while I have a wee bitty of time on my hands I would like to at least learn the basics, things like adding EV compensation, someone mentioned before shoot to the left not to the right, good starter film roles to use for B&W only or for Color only or for B&W and Color. Buy rolls of 12, 20, 30 or what...........all this kind of stuff

Shooting film on Leica is no different to shooting film on any another camera, so any books or blogs will be relatively applicable.

My suggestions (which are not necessarily any more valid than any other suggestions):

1) Get a camera and lens (The identified M6TTL with 35mm Summilux is a great starting point, and it has a reliable meter, which is going to make your beginning easier).

2) Get some rolls of film. My suggestion would be to start with B&W, and get various ISO 100 - 400 to try. B&W removes one factor from the equation, allowing you to better see how film acts, and the difference between it and digital.

3) Get the rolls developed and 16-base scanned to CD.

4) Load the scanned images into LR /PS / Whatever editing software you use. Try to tag each set of images with the film-type used, and then compare the results.

5) Be prepared for scanned film not to look or behave quite the same as the digital images you are used to. Films have their own levels and types of grain, which behave very differently to noise in digital images. From what I have found of my images (scanned on Fuji Frontier at a Fuji shop in Singapore), there is seldom a requirement to do any post-processing to achieve an acceptable image. Image failures are much more likely to be down to focus or composition, than to exposure.

6) Once you feel like you've got a good handle on seeing the light for B&W (and seeking out the shadows, highlights, and tonal properties of a scene), try jumping into colour. I hadn't shot colour film for over 30 years, and am astounded by how good the modern emulsions are.

7) All of the above depends also on what you want to shoot. I like photographing people in their daily environment, so I'm not concerned about grainy images or perfect exposure. Shooting models or objects may be a different story.

8) After (my suggestion) you have got to a happy place with shooting film, you may want to delve into developing (easy to get chemicals for B&W in Malaysia, as long as it's Ilford), and / or scanning.

9) If you really get the bug, as Steve notes, wet printing can be the most enjoyable (for some, at least) and rewarding creative control over your image.

[EoinC]

Is the same shutter speed rule of thumb the same with digital and film. i.e. FL35 minimum shutter 1/35 or better still 1/60

35mm film cameras are the same as full frame digital ("full frame" being a reference to film frame size equivalent). I'm comfortable using 1/35s on still and pan shots with a 35 or a 50, but it does depend on your technique, your subject, your desired outcome, and how many double espresso's you just consumed.

Think of a film M as being the same as your Monochrome was, except that the sensor doesn't get dirty, it can take a while to change ISO's, and chimping has a few days' delay.

[EoinC]

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Correct.  But you'll find you may set the ISO differently to suit your style.  You'll hear about photographers "pushing" Tri-X 400 by metering it at 800 or 1600.  When you push film it needs to be processed differently so make sure to tell the lab.  I think you'll like how it looks.

Joshua is correct, Neil. "Pushing" film is shooting it as if it were a higher ISO than it's "box speed" (eg taking ISO 400 Tri-X, and under-exposing it by metering for ISO 800). You then "over-develop" it to bring it back.

"Pulling" film is doing the opposite - Under-exposing it by metering for a lower than box-speed, and then "under-developing" it.

In general practice, this will mean pushing or pulling the whole film, so that it is developed the same.

Different films behave differently when pushed or pulled. Pushing or pulling may be for physical requirement (eg shooting in light that is brighter or darker than the film can handle at box speed), or may be for the actual behavior of the emulsion.

Starting out, I would suggest just sticking to box speed, so that it is one less factor to understand in working out how your actions equate to your results.

Edited March 26, 2016 by EoinC

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One of the obvious pitfalls is the handling of the film itself. Use one cartridge to train yourself and to perform all the steps. Any old film will do and perhaps they have one in the shop they can't sell because it's past its due date.

 

Set the ASA dial on back of the camera to the correct speed before loading  the camera. 

Load the camera according to the manual. The cartridge goes into the side where the crank is. Loading the camera should not be done in bright light as the lips of the cartridge may not hold back enough light.

After shooting more than - say - 30 frames you should use the advance lever with care. Prepare yourself for the film being at its end. If you advance the film slowly, you will feel very distinctly when it will not advance any farther. The end of the film has been reached and do not apply too much force lest you pull the end out of the cartridge.

Turn the small lever in front of the camera (close to the shutter release) to the "R" position (for "rewind"), fold out the crank at the other end of the camera and start rewinding the film into the cartridge by turning the crank at a moderate speed in the direction shown by the arrow.

If you turn slowly enough, you will feel and hear when the film leaves the take-up spool and the sprocket wheel. Stop winding right now and the end of the film willl still stick out of the cartridge. This makes developing the film easier.

 

I am sure there will be different recommendations about each step I outlined here, but after very few rolls you will have your own routine which you then will fiercely defend against all suggestions to do otherwise.

 

Edit: some pulll the flap off the box the film came in, fold it to the appropriate size and put it into the accessory shoe. This way, you are always reminded of the exact type of film in the camera.

[rpavich]

I'm a film noob like yourself and my advice is to just shoot.

 

Buy some black and white film and just go shoot.

Have fun, do your best. Get it developed and then evaluate what works and what doesn't.

 

Keep notes on what you do so that you can correlate that to the results you get.

 

Knowledge will come in time.

 

Don't expect your images to look the same as digital, they won't.

[Guest NEIL-D-WILLIAMS]

Okay so I think I have made the deal already for the M6 TTL and the 35mm sumalux. Raymond has the KodakTX400 film and he knows where I can get it developed, I also want to check out the place at Pubilk where Eoin recommends for developing. I have a 1/2 case and strap so it looks like I am ready to go.

A few more questions first.

1. If I am going to be using the built in meter, does that meter spot or average?
2. Example if I am taking a portrait and it is back lit, is it better to stop down to expose the background correctly or better to add EV so that the subject is exposed correctly?
3. What about lens flare, does that still effect film like it does digital
4. I still have an selection of orange and yellow filters at home, not sure if the thread size will match the 35mm lens, the ones I had were for a 90mm f2, 50mm 0.95 and 21mm lux...........I can easily google that
5. When I drop film off at the developers, is there any specific things I need to tell them or is it an automatic, develop the negatives and then they make RAW files for you on a CD or is it something you need to ask for?
6. What about weather sealing.....is the M6 weather sealed?

All this new stuff is exciting :)

[Guest]

http://www.newoldcamera.com/Scheda.aspx?Codice=14C1137

 

I would go for this

 

 

Neil - I hope you don't mind if I ask a question about the M6J KIT in this link. But, first, let me just say that ,after shooting three rolls of Tri-X with my M6 that I haven't touched for ten years, I am now thinking of selling with my MM and M9-P — mainly because I like how film renders highlights of the bright and harsh light of Thailand. I wrote about that in a thread on scanning here — and you can see some of my recent Tri-X pictures and also some MM/M9-P pictures that are the background to my thinking here: http://www.rangefinderforum.com/forums/showthread.php?t=155090

 

BTW, my M6 also has a 0.85 viewfinder, which I prefer, both for 35mm and 50mm lenses — and I use the Zeiss viewfinders for my 21mm and 28mm lenses. On exposing film for the shadows: it seems to me the suggestions on how to do this, under various scenarios, as described in the M6 manual are good and you just have to try that: there's no need for voluminous reading on this subject.

 

My question on the M6J KIT is what do people think about the M6J compared to the MP? — I've been musing about getting an MP with an 0.85 viewfinder — and this M6J FIT, of course, has that and it also has the M6 rewind lever, which is what I prefer. 

[cwolffensperger]

Not to sound disrespectfull, but maybe it's wise to take up a course in photography, especially since you've invested heavily into your equipment.

And start with following all the rules, and stick to them. So for instance start using the meter in the camera (centre weight), and stick to box speed. And stick to one kind of film in the beginning (my advice: tri-x; this one is forgiving and beautiful classic rendering). This way you you minimize the variables, and it'll give you better understanding of what you're doing and what the effect'll be. Maybe even keep a notebook and record your settings (as some kind of analog exif; you can find nice apps for that as well, e.g. Film rolls for iOS).

Other questions: backlit: try to overexpose a little (+1 f.i.). Lens flare: about the same as digital. Don't start with filters, it'll make your interpretation more difficult in the beginning. First try to get reliable results.

If some shops scan for you (easiest but more expensive), mostly you'll get jpg.

And no, leica's are not weather sealed, officially. But they can have a beating, and there's not much electrical to mess up. Let it dry proper if it gets wet.

 

Cheers, and enjoy!

[EoinC]

Okay so I think I have made the deal already for the M6 TTL and the 35mm sumalux. Raymond has the KodakTX400 film and he knows where I can get it developed, I also want to check out the place at Pubilk where Eoin recommends for developing. I have a 1/2 case and strap so it looks like I am ready to go.

A few more questions first.

1. If I am going to be using the built in meter, does that meter spot or average?
2. Example if I am taking a portrait and it is back lit, is it better to stop down to expose the background correctly or better to add EV so that the subject is exposed correctly?
3. What about lens flare, does that still effect film like it does digital
4. I still have an selection of orange and yellow filters at home, not sure if the thread size will match the 35mm lens, the ones I had were for a 90mm f2, 50mm 0.95 and 21mm lux...........I can easily google that
5. When I drop film off at the developers, is there any specific things I need to tell them or is it an automatic, develop the negatives and then they make RAW files for you on a CD or is it something you need to ask for?
6. What about weather sealing.....is the M6 weather sealed?

All this new stuff is exciting :)

1. The meter is pretty basic - it focuses on a small painted spot. Don't worry - For the most part, it is accurate enough, given the latitude that film has.
2. It is a manual camera. You make adjustments to the aperture and / or shutter speed to under or over expose, depending upon what you are after. "EV" is just a measure of the combination.
3. I haven't had any problems with lens flare with the 35mm Summilux (on film or digital bodies). The issue is exactly the same (ie it either exist or it doesn't), with the only difference being that film generally handles highlights better than digital does.
4. The 35mm Summilux takes 46mm filters. I agree with cwolfensperger - Don't add contrast filters until you are sure on what a given emulsion delivers. Starting out you want as few factors affecting the outcome as possible. I commonly use contrast filters on my Monochrom, but have not needed them so far on film (acknowledging my numptyness in forgetting to remove a yellow filter when I swapped lenses and was shooting Ektar 100 colour film).
5. Initially, you ask for developing plus 16-base scan. If you have pushed or pulled the film speed (as described by Joshua above), you need to tell them what the adjustment was. They (at least in Singapore) will usually charge extra to adjust their developing. As with the filters, I would recommend leaving this until you are comfortable with the various films you use, and with the exposure settings for the same. Keep it simple...
6. No, but then it doesn't have any electronics. I wouldn't drown it, but I am quite happy walking around with mine in KL downpours, keeping it reasonably covered by my body.

[menos I M6]

 

No Jaap,

No GAS mate just something I have always fancied but shied away from it as I don't think I could be bothered with a dark room and all that BS. But then I found out that you basically take pictures on film then have a shop develop them for you and then run them through a scanner.

Questions

1. How important is it to get the right shop to develop the film, can anyone do it or is it better to look for a specialised shop?
2. What kind of film would you recommend for a newbie (I like B&W)
3. What kind of scanner would you recommend getting..........links please
4. What kind of resolution can you expect to get from a scanned film negative or are they all the same?
5. Look for a good second hand camera or buy new??
6. I guess I will need lenses as well so thinking ahead with new M in September a 50mm APO maybe.........I guess they work on film right? And maybe a 35mm as well
7. What about lens speed, I guess its the same as digital right?
8.  

 

 

1) the shop is mostly important for quality (scratching film, leaving film dirty, cutting in frames), features (do they offer push/pull processing and are they flexible in how you want your film developed - developer, over/under developing, cutting+archival or uncut and rolled, …)

Of course the most important thing with a shop is consistency.

It is no good to have a nice shop and every roll is developed different - you want consistent quality, so your small adjustment during shooting will be reflected in the developed film.

 

2) buy a selection of the widely liked big brand films, shoot one roll from each (preferably at box speed first), have a shop develop it for you and see which you like best, then STICK to that film and get some experience with it, THEN (and only then) start to experiment with push/pull, different developers, developing yourself, scanning, …

Especially with B&W film you REALLY want to develop yourself in order to control: quality, consistency, individual dev for certain rolls, convenience and if you shoot a lot - of course: costs

 

3) my personal favorite for 35mm film: Konica Minolta 5400 Mk1 (out of production and VERY difficult if not impossibly to find spare parts and repairs) - currently in production and a decent (but compared to high end dedicated older scanners not great): Plustek 8200 and similar.

For any scanner - make sure you try out the software VueScan (supports a huge selection of old and new scanners, works on Mac and PC and allows for a lot of customization)

 

4) similar resolution to 12-18MP digital 35mm cameras - with specialized high resolution films you can expect more but will have to work hard to achieve this. The process of scanning destroys a large part of the available detail in negatives/ slides and you have to invest a lot of work to fine tune your workflow to achieve great results - stick to one thing that works and improve from there.

 

5) best starter Leica M film body in my opinion: Leica M6 classic (prices have been lower in the past, now second hand Leica MP and M7 bodies are closer to M6 prices and one should look for a nice deal).

For any older camera, plan for the cost of a decent CLA (not always really necessary but often can improve performance or remove small niggly issues).

My favorite film body:

- M7 .85 for 50 and 75mm

- M2 for 35mm

… but ANY well maintained Leica film M is a great body really. You want a good user body, a previous owner took good care of having it maintained well and has used it regularly, rather then buying a beater for the little costs or a shelf queen for the great looks (both of these extremes will inevitably lead to additional costs)

Buying a new film M in my opinion is a good thing to do once you really know what features you want and plan to use it regularly for a long time.

The large offering in second film M bodies is a great playground to find out what you really want.

 

6) will work just fine on film

 

7) I tend to faster lenses for my film bodies than with digital as you can crank ISO so high these days with digital bodies. It really depends entirely on your photography.

Some people are just fine with ISO 100 film and f2.8 lenses all day long, others are constantly pushing their ISO 800 film to 1600 and shoot with f1.4 lenses and faster.

Take a digital camera (any), set it to a certain speed and try to shoot with your favorite focal length for some time and you will know.

[EoinC]

Not to sound disrespectfull, but maybe it's wise to take up a course in photography, especially since you've invested heavily into your equipment..

If you want to get a bit of educating in, Neil, Ming Thein (based in KL) does a fair bit of teaching:

http://blog.mingthein.com/category/teaching/

[Guest NEIL-D-WILLIAMS]

I just read his article on street photography with a M6.............good reading :)

[Doc Henry]

Doc

What I was thinking is seeing as the film cameras have ISO limitations would I be better off getting a Sumalux like the 35mm 1.4 that I have been offered

Neil , not need 25.000 Isos and a sensor , to take this picture in almost full dark

completely illogical to denature the present atmosphere , make night photos as in the day

 

MP-28 Summicron Asph

Kodak TX400 pushed 800

 

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Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members!

 

Best

Henry

Edited March 26, 2016 by Doc Henry

[Guest NEIL-D-WILLIAMS]

^^^^^ Amazing

[hepcat]

I am contemplating buying a Leica Film camera and wondered what you guys would recommend. I have been doing photography (Digital) since 2010 and have alway been fascinated with watching some of my mates shooting film cameras. About one year ago I went on a photoshoot in downtown KL and one of the guys that was with me had a Leica film camera with him. When he posted his pictures a week or so later they were just fantastic. Unfortunately he is no longer in KL and seeing as I am itching for something new I think that now is the time to move over to the dark side and try my hand at shooting film.

Looking forward to your replies

 

Neil

 

 

Can someone point me to some EASY reading on shooting Leica film cameras, I am not a complete plonker around cameras but have NEVER shot a film camera so while I have a wee bitty of time on my hands I would like to at least learn the basics, things like adding EV compensation, someone mentioned before shoot to the left not to the right, good starter film roles to use for B&W only or for Color only or for B&W and Color. Buy rolls of 12, 20, 30 or what...........all this kind of stuff

 

Neil, I'm a little late to the party here.  I've read your whole thread.  Just as a VERY brief CV,  I've been shooting film since 1970 and both digital and film since 1999.  I still have my b&w darkroom.  I've shot Leica off and on since 1974.  

 

I get it that you're a "toys" guy, and that you like to get close to folks on the street, and that's great...  but you've never definitively said why you want to begin shooting film.  And you seem to be approaching this like shooting film  will revolutionize the way you shoot.  And it won't.  You don't mention what, exactly, it was about the other fellow's images that were "fantastic" and why you're attributing that "fantastic" quality to that they were shot on film.    

 

You mention that you're not new to photography, yet you're going about this like film photography and digital photography are wholly and completely different.   They're not.  As a matter of fact, what happens with the camera in your hands is identical.  The only difference is how the images are stored, and that making a crazy number of frames with film gets expensive.

 

I tell a lot of folks who were raised with digital that it takes self-discipline to be a photographer, and the medium and format are irrelevant.  There is no reason for your shooting style to change when shooting with either film or digital.  When I shoot a wedding, I shoot around 200 frames, whether it's digital or film.  I know photographers who shoot 3,000 frames for a wedding on digital.  I don't understand how you can possibly find 3,000 "somethings" to shoot at a wedding and reception... yet that's becoming the norm because photographers lack the discipline to find the shot, wait for the shot and capture it at the height of its action.  They just machine-gun the shutter hoping to catch something good.

 

Frankly, I suspect that folks today who shoot film possess that self-disciplined approach more than those who shoot digital and have never shot film.  I suspect that your Leica friend's "fantastic" shots may be "fantastic" because of that kind of self-discipline in exposing frames as much or more than just because the capture medium is film.  And, as I said, that kind of self-discipline in shooting is independent of format or medium.   My guess is that you'd probably find his digital work to be "fantastic" as well.

 

Quality in photography is about how the photographer goes about making an image.  Equipment only plays a role in that it's competent to do what the photographer asks of it under the circumstances he finds himself.  We are fortunate as we  have a broad selection of brands, types, and style of cameras to choose from; not a one of them makes the photographer.  Everything you read to the contrary is advertising hype or someone's self-delusion.

 

So, my advice to you is to begin finding some good books on photography from the '50s and '60s.  Learn about emulsions, learn about exposing film, learn about processing...  understand how silver halide crystals respond to light.  In other words pay your dues and learn the craft if you want to be successful with film.   The very same techniques will work nicely for digital as well.  Oh digital has some cool tools like histograms and so forth, but the basics are the same and you'd do well to learn them.  Folks are kind to offer advice here, and the advice you've gotten is good... but its piecemeal and needs a greater context to be understood...   the ISO/ASA/DIN/GOST thing, for example.  Oh, and using film there ISN'T a "shoot to the left" because there isn't a histogram.  There ARE, however, density and base plus fog, densitometers, and the Zone System which you'd do well to master.

 

Good luck, and I hope you find that "fantastic" thing you're looking for. 

Edited March 26, 2016 by hepcat

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Hallo,

Look here: Interesting Leica gear

[Doc Henry]

... and the ISO disk , same on M7 (picture below) and MP (No DX on MP)

 

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Best

Henry

Edited March 26, 2016 by Doc Henry