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Leica Film Odyssey for a beginner


Guest NEIL-D-WILLIAMS

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Guest NEIL-D-WILLIAMS

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If I may throw a little ball in Neil... It sounds like you have no experience in film photography yet, and are eager to start in to it. And you should, because it's wonderfull! But I'd like to warn you to a little, don't buy in big immediately. Maybe start with a second hand camera (Leica m6 or so is great), but also consider something cheaper, like an old Nikon F2, FE, Canon AE-1, or if you're into rangefinders an old Kiev or Zorki. They're a lot cheaper than the leica's. May be less sharp on the objectives, but it'll leave a lot of extra money on film, developing and scanning.

Just my 2 cents...!

Thanks for the feedback but if I'm buying another camera it's going to be Leica not necessarily new but it's going to be a Leica
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An M4-P with the 0.72 viewfinder would be a great place to start, with a Sekonic L-508 light meter to go with it.  The L-508 can be found on ebay, starting at arouns $100 and going up to around $300.  I have used this meter for years and it is outstanding.

 

The M-4P is an older Leica, just old enough to have missed most of Leica's cost cutting measures incorporated into the newer film M bodies.  It is an extremely well made and reliable M camera that can be bought very reasonably on the used market.

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Questions

  1. How important is it to get the right shop to develop the film, can anyone do it or is it better to look for a specialised shop ? : develop yourself , see my reply in "I like film thread". Print your pictures in silver paper specially in b&w it's nicer than on the scan :)
  2. What kind of film would you recommend for a newbie (I like B&W) : KodakTX400 
  3. What kind of scanner would you recommend getting..........links please https://translate.google.fr/translate?sl=fr&tl=en&js=y&prev=_t&hl=fr&ie=UTF-8&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.studio-plus.fr%2Fphoto-argentique%2Fcomparatif-scanners-de-negatifs.html&edit-text=   ** (Nikon is no longer produced but can purchased second hand)   otherwise other gentlemen here will advise you new scanners

    http://www.bhphotovideo.com/explora/photography/buying-guide/film-scanners

  4. What kind of resolution can you expect to get from a scanned film negative or are they all the same? : see also DMax in the same first link
  5. Look for a good second hand camera or buy new?? :  second hand cheaper , with guarantee if possible (Leica shops). I bought my 2 film cameras (M7 guar:2 years and MP guar:5 years) new but more expensive
  6. I guess I will need lenses as well so thinking ahead with new M in September a 50mm APO maybe.........I guess they work on film right? And maybe a 35mm as well : for film and for me Leica lens , not need Apo 50 (too expensive), and as Eoin said , take a 35mm  or 50mm  Summilux f:1.4 or cheaper 35 -50 Summicron f:2
  7. What about lens speed, I guess its the same as digital right ? :  lens speed I don't understand ?   Rg Henry
Edited by Doc Henry
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I took a look on B&H and for less than 5k they have a M7 TTL........I think thats what they called it. What about one of those??

Regarding film If one likes B&W should they just use B&W film or better to use color then adjust in PP afterwards??

Generally, choose the emulsion that gives you what you want. You can convert colour to B&W in post-processing, but  the only reason I have done that is when I've buggered up by leaving a yellow contrast filter on when swapping lenses. This is Ektar 100 (shot on 50mm Apo Summicron, to answer another of your questions), with self-inflicted jaundice then corrected in LR...

Original shot...

25903517825_f33fa7688c_b.jpgb010 by Eoin Christie, on Flickr

 

...and B&W salvage...

25274831443_83b342829b_b.jpgb009 by Eoin Christie, on Flickr

 

Neil - I suggest you continue to spend some time scrolling through the "I love film..." thread (as you have been doing), and pay attention to the films used. Then go and have a look on Flickr, where there are often groups based on specific emulsions.

 

Also be aware of the ISO ratings. When you're back in KL, it's reasonably easy to use the slower films, but lower light will have you reaching for the faster ones, especially if you are wanting to stop down the aperture (which is very likely, given the previous difficulty you experienced with rangefinder use). On a side note, if the eyesight issue is still a problem for rangefinding, you could consider getting a Leica R (SLR). Have a look over at the Leica R threads on this forum. A friend of mine has / had his R set-up for sale at the Leica shop in KL.

 

My personal favourite films are:

  • ISO400  =  Tri-X
  • ISO100  =  Neopan Across
  • ISO50  =  Pan F

In colour, I like using Ektar 100. I need to spend more time with Portra 800, 400, and 160 - I don't particularly like my results in them so far, but that's a problem with the user, not the films.

Edited by EoinC
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...What about lens speed, I guess its the same as digital right ? :  lens speed I don't understand ?   Rg Henry

 

I think Neil's referring to how fast the lens is, Henry.

 

The answer, Neil, is "Yes, a f/2.0 lens in a digital full frame camera is the same as a f/2.0 lens in 135 film". You may notice in basking in the "I love film..." thread that there is a lot less reliance on bokeh to "maketh the photo". I'm forming an impression that, as digital has become ever-increasingly "realistic" in it's native product, we have to delve deeper into the bag of lens and post-processing tricks to try to make it somehow less real. I could, of course be completely wrong but, if so, I am happy in my ignorance.

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As someone who shoots both film and digital my end goal is to get the shot I want, but as to how you get there they are 2 very different beasts.

 

The best advice I've seen on this thread is to start small.

 

To start, do you want a fully manual camera (no light meter, no AE function), just sunny 16 and maybe a handeld meter or do you want the option of a meter and perhaps AE? I started with a little Olympus 35RD, RF and basic meter that didn't work that well so I had to learn the sunny 16 rule.

 

Secondly, do you want to develop yourself or hand your film over to a lab to process. Handing your film over to a lab is the easiest (generic prints, scanned negs and when you have the confidence to play the push/pull game a closer relationship with your Lab). However, developing yourself opens up a whole new world of processes, chemistry, film & print options and workflow changes. It's a huge discipline that is not to be underestimated. I haven't even scratched the surface and while I'm persistent, I'm also impatient to see the results.

 

Leica kit or not, you will never on day one produce the results you want and it will be a source of frustration and stops a lot of starters at this first hurdle. 

 

One last point. I'm not a chemist, I don't particularly enjoy being couped up in a dark room standing over a sink for hours on end, or timing inversions, or buggering around with water temperature, or praying the dust giants don't devour my negatives, or watching the hours tick by scanning a 36 shot roll of negatives (it takes time). Some love the detail of the process and the experimentation, others don't.

 

But I do love film and have created a simple enough workflow with a narrow band of film types I know and love and a camera that gives me a range of options depending how I'm shooting on the day. And, of course, the non negotiable use of Leica lenses  ;)

 

It's a noble art and I love it, but if you try to answer all the questions on day one, well, that way madness lies.  :)

Edited by Rapierwitman
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Two things to add to all the foregoing, one obvious, one less so.

 

- film ISO is limited, maybe ISO800, but 100-400 is the norm. Digital ISO up to >12500 is fantasy land for films. So you will find yourself thinking more about the max aperture of your lenses, and about the available light.

 

- Knowing your business, an early Leica (M2-M4 at least - my knowledge stops there) may be useful: they don't need batteries to operate, and neither does an add-on MC exposure meter. I've used them at gas terminals and flammable storage facilities where another camera would get me arrested.

Edited by LocalHero1953
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Interesting thread.

 

I've been using Leica cameras since the 1970's (first job), working courtrooms, political events, etc. Not much call for that in the 21st century... .

 

My two cents: if you need something wider than 35mm, then why not an inexpensive M4-P (I still use these as "go to" machines when batteries run low on my M8.2)---which buys you a 28mm finder. If you want 35mm and greater, I'm happy with an M2, but this might be too difficult to find and requires a slightly different approach to loading film---and so the inexpensive M4-2 might do the trick. Of course, none of these have meters. Both have "M" and "X" sync plugs for flash units (if you care). But none of these have "collector" value (except for perhaps the M2 ... or so I'm told) and so you might not have to pay lots of money.

 

I would ask: what is it that I want to do? Why film rangefinders, or, more to the point, why manual film rangefinders? 

 

By the way, the reason I still use Leica cameras is because I have a bit of Leica glass, and that's not too easy to replace.

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I took a look on B&H and for less than 5k they have a M7 TTL........I think thats what they called it. What about one of those??

Regarding film If one likes B&W should they just use B&W film or better to use color then adjust in PP afterwards??

 

I don't like the M7, personally.  It's too dependent on electronics.  If the battery dies or the there's a electronic failure you lose all shutter speeds except for 1/60 and 1/125.  The DX code reader in the M7 apparently had its share of issues, too.

 

With an M6 or MP if there's an electronic failure the only thing you lose is the meter.

 

If you don't care about having a built in meter then I'd say get an M4 or M-A.

 

If you do want a meter I'd say M6 or MP.  

 

I read Japan Camera Hunter's article about deciding which body to get and I went with a non-TTL M6, which was his general recommendation.  At some point I'll probably supplement it with a black paint MP.

 

I'm very happy with the M6.  My only issues with it are that the finder patch is prone to flare and the shutter speed dial is too small.

 

 

 

No Jaap,

No GAS mate just something I have always fancied but shied away from it as I don't think I could be bothered with a dark room and all that BS. But then I found out that you basically take pictures on film then have a shop develop them for you and then run them through a scanner.

Questions

  1. How important is it to get the right shop to develop the film, can anyone do it or is it better to look for a specialised shop?
  2. What kind of film would you recommend for a newbie (I like B&W)
  3. What kind of scanner would you recommend getting..........links please
  4. What kind of resolution can you expect to get from a scanned film negative or are they all the same?
  5. Look for a good second hand camera or buy new??
  6. I guess I will need lenses as well so thinking ahead with new M in September a 50mm APO maybe.........I guess they work on film right? And maybe a 35mm as well
  7. What about lens speed, I guess its the same as digital right?
  8.  

 

 

1. You don't need to go high end for processing.

2. Go to Flickr and look at groups dedicated to different films.  IMO this is the best way.  That said for B&W you'll see Kodak Tri-X 400 and Ilford HP5 Plus 400 consistently being recommended.

3. This is a huge can of worms.  The current choices for 135 scanning are bad.  I opted for a Pakon/Kodak F135 scanner which is an outdated piece of minilab gear that only runs under Windows XP, a 15 year old operating system that's completely out of support.  If you're not a computer person and you don't know about things like virtualization then I can't really recommend it.  If you are comfortable with things like VMs then it's worth considering.  Pakon/Kodak were wizards when it comes to colors and tones.  

4.  It depends on the scanner.  The Pakon can do 3000x2000.  That's enough for me to publish online and for normal sized prints.  If I want maximum resolution and quality then I'll send the negative to a professional who uses a drum scanner.

5. I went second hand and wouldn't hesitate to do so again.

6. I have an APO 50, it's ridiculous overkill for film.  A Summilux or regular Summicron would do just as well.    

7. Lens speed is the same but the behavior of film vs. a digital sensor is different.  With digital you tend to expose to the right because you want to preserve highlights.  With film you tend to expose to the left because you want to preserve shadow detail.

Edited by Joshua Lowe
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Guest NEIL-D-WILLIAMS

Okay I'm back. Durning the night I have been offered a mint condition M6 plus mint condition 35mm f1.4 for RM22000 or ~$5500 Does that sound like its in the ball park??

I will answer the other comments after breakfast :)

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Guest NEIL-D-WILLIAMS

 

Questions

  1. How important is it to get the right shop to develop the film, can anyone do it or is it better to look for a specialised shop ? : develop yourself , see my reply in "I like film thread". Print your pictures in silver paper specially in b&w it's nicer than on the scan :)
  2. What kind of film would you recommend for a newbie (I like B&W) : KodakTX400 
  3. What kind of scanner would you recommend getting..........links please https://translate.google.fr/translate?sl=fr&tl=en&js=y&prev=_t&hl=fr&ie=UTF-8&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.studio-plus.fr%2Fphoto-argentique%2Fcomparatif-scanners-de-negatifs.html&edit-text=   ** (Nikon is no longer produced but can purchased second hand)   otherwise other gentlemen here will advise you new scanners

    http://www.bhphotovideo.com/explora/photography/buying-guide/film-scanners

  4. What kind of resolution can you expect to get from a scanned film negative or are they all the same? : see also DMax in the same first link
  5. Look for a good second hand camera or buy new?? :  second hand cheaper , with guarantee if possible (Leica shops). I bought my 2 film cameras (M7 guar:2 years and MP guar:5 years) new but more expensive
  6. I guess I will need lenses as well so thinking ahead with new M in September a 50mm APO maybe.........I guess they work on film right? And maybe a 35mm as well : for film and for me Leica lens , not need Apo 50 (too expensive), and as Eoin said , take a 35mm  or 50mm  Summilux f:1.4 or cheaper 35 -50 Summicron f:2
  7. What about lens speed, I guess its the same as digital right ? :  lens speed I don't understand ?   Rg Henry

 

Doc

What I was thinking is seeing as the film cameras have ISO limitations would I be better off getting a Sumalux like the 35mm 1.4 that I have been offered

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Guest NEIL-D-WILLIAMS

I just checked whether my M7 fits into my M8 case. Surprisingly it does. Not ideal but works.

Thats good news, I will wait and see if my M9 (Leica MM) 1/2 case will fit the M6

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Okay I'm back. Durning the night I have been offered a mint condition M6 plus mint condition 35mm f1.4 for RM22000 or ~$5500 Does that sound like its in the ball park??

I will answer the other comments after breakfast :)

Rather on the high side I would say.  Note that the link from Steve is for an M6J which is a quite expensive .

version.

A good M6 body can be found at Red Dot for less than 1000 GBP, a Summilux 35 for about 1400.

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