New boy on the block. 'User' or 'Exc+', and 'Rigid' or otherwise?

[kentishrev]

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So, I've finally decided to dip my toe in the Leica pool.  A long-time Pentax user who started with digital, then began to use film more (with an MX and and P30N).

 

An M6 could be in the longer-term, but I want to learn and experience the meter-less world first.  With exceptions allowed for family and event photos, I'm aiming for a 'one-camera, one-lens' project next year to teach myself some of the basics I've probably skipped over in the past.   

 

I've seen a good oppotunituy for a 'User' grade M3 or, for 200 GBP more, an 'Exc+' M4.  My question is whether there is really better value in getting an 'Exc+' over a 'User' given my circumstance.  I'm assuming the issue is really the lens, and whilst everyone seems to say 'Summicron 50mm' - can anyone explain the difference between 'rigid' and ottherwise?  And which should I go for as a first time RF user.

 

many thanks

 

[TomB_tx]

A lot of the difference in fading is the exterior condition on camera bodies. However, that can also be an indication of heavy use or user care. Back in 1968 I bought the new M4 model instead of an M3 because a rangefinder camera is most advantageous with normal to wide lenses, and the M3 viewfinder doesn't cover wider than 50, while the M4 has also a frame for 35. Over all the decades  35 and 50 are my most used lenses on my M4.

Summicrons have always been good. The first model was a collapsible model that could push back into the mount when in storage, like the original Leica Elmar lenses. The "rigid" was the next model with improved optics. Then later models continued optical improvements, also in rigid mounts, but only the version 2 is called The rigid. Either the v2 rigid or the v3 introduced in 1968 would be my suggestion. The V3 has higher contrast, and I generally prefer it - but then it is what I bought for my M4.

You could be happy with either model - they both have their charms.

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[madNbad]

If you have a shop with a good return policy, that would be the best place to start.  All of the M2/3 cameras are at least fifty years old at this point and unless recently serviced they most likely need attention.  The last M4s' were made over forty years ago and the same is true for them.  One of the joys of owning a vintage Leica is they (within reason) can be brought to workable condition.  If you have the opportunity to try out a camera make sure the controls move easily, the are no odd sounds, grinding or binding is bad, the viewfinder is clear and the rangefinder patch ls easy to see.  If you decide on an M2 or M3 make sure the take up spool is with the camera.  There are a ton of lenses out there.  Not only from Leica but Zeiss, Voigtlander and a lot of screw mount (LTM) lenses which can be used on a M body with an adapter.  Most of you questions can be answered by searching the forum or just asking outright.  Good luck with your search and welcome to the forum.

[spydrxx]

Like Tom_B, I bought my first Leica, an M4 back in 1969, and used it until 3 years ago with it needing servicing only once, because of my carelessness. It was truly my favorite camera body of all time. These days I'm using an M2 which is almost as nice. I found a real bargain at a pawnbroker's about a year ago, a iif,  which cosmetically looked like it had been thru Hell & back when I acquired it, but the mechanics were smooth and accurate, and a recovering brought it back to great looks in no time, it it has become easily my favorite in the last 5 years because of the magnified focusing. IMHO the cosmetic condition is often the least of a camera's issues, and fairly easily rectified, but can be indicative of more serious mechanical issues, indicating the need for a CLA. So, most importantly, ensure whatever you select, is in top mechanical condition with an accurate shutter. As to which lens to use on it, again condition is often a much more important criteria than which version of a lens one is using, especially for a first time user. Leica lenses are very good to excellent in design,  manufacturing tolerances, and image quality, but thru misuse, careless inattention, or lack of knowledge can be damaged or thrown out of tolerance and require a "tuneup" by a knowledgeable professional. If you have special uses/needs, you may increasingly become aware of the nuances of the various versions of a lens and may prefer one nuance over another. You will see endless discussions of these nuances, and probably be tempted into acquiring more than one lens as your familiarity grows. In the beginning, if you get one in good operational and optical condition and use it a year or so, you'll be in a much better position to evaluate elements of performance for your specific conditions. Good luck and enjoy whichever body & lens you select.

[pgk]

The M4 is more versatile as it has the 35mm frame line. It featured various 'improvements' (some will disagree) over the M3 and M4 as you might expect since its a later camera and to me is slightly more refined. Its my favourite film Leica (I still have one although mine is very 'user' grade and is having a replacement body shell fitted due to extensive damage - I bought my first in 1980) and I would always choose an M4 over an M3 myself. You would then also have the choice of fitting a 35mm lens if required (again, personally, I'd start with a 35mm but that's just me. The good thing about have 35 and 50 frame lines is that you can 'try' the lenses in terms of their view before deciding.

[Fotoklaus]

I would go for the M4 because of the framelines for 35mm- lenses. The M3- finder is great for 50mm, but I don´t  want to use the special 35mm- lenses with

the additional finder- attachement. The M4 has also the later quickloading- system, which is easier to handle than the extra takeup- spool of the M2/M3.

I would prefer a later Summicron V3 (1968 - 1979) over the rigid- version for picture- quality reasons. They are not that expensive than the newer ones and

have the best "bang for the buck", I think.

But remember: A seldom used collectors- camera with no signs of use may also need a CLA because of sticky grease and so on.

So ask clearly, if the camera is working 100% (shutter speeds at all times, self timer, framelines changing properly...)

[earleygallery]

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So, I've finally decided to dip my toe in the Leica pool.  A long-time Pentax user who started with digital, then began to use film more (with an MX and and P30N).

 

An M6 could be in the longer-term, but I want to learn and experience the meter-less world first.  With exceptions allowed for family and event photos, I'm aiming for a 'one-camera, one-lens' project next year to teach myself some of the basics I've probably skipped over in the past.   

 

I've seen a good oppotunituy for a 'User' grade M3 or, for 200 GBP more, an 'Exc+' M4.  My question is whether there is really better value in getting an 'Exc+' over a 'User' given my circumstance.  I'm assuming the issue is really the lens, and whilst everyone seems to say 'Summicron 50mm' - can anyone explain the difference between 'rigid' and ottherwise?  And which should I go for as a first time RF user.

 

many thanks

 

A few thoughts / ideas for you. 

 

Firstly, if budget is an issue you can also consider older LTM Leica's (lovely cameras) or the Voigtlander bodies (M mount and LTM versions). 

 

If you really want a Leica M, then look at the M2, M4-2 and M4-P. The M2 and 4-2 have 35mm frame lines and the 4-P has 28mm. The M3 is 'limited' to 50mm at the widest end, plus these models are generally the cheapest in like for like condition to others. 

 

You say you want to try meterless photography? There's no such thing of course, we have to meter the light whether it's our own judgement or using a light meter. I would strongly suggest also buying yourself a hand held meter which takes incident readings. It will help you to learn about light metering and in time you will only refer to it occasionally when out shooting. I'd even suggest it if you were buying an M6 because the built in meter is like a fat spot meter, which changes scope with different lenses. It's not a simple 'point and shoot' type of meter. 

 

As for condition, it really depends on the persons opinion of what 'user' or 'Exc' mean - sometimes it could be the same! Buy your camera and lens from a reputable dealer who provides a warranty. Ideally buy in person and you can ask for a brief tutorial (loading film etc) at the same time. You might save a few ££'s if you buy privately but if your camera turns out to need a CLA you'll be looking at spending another £200 plus. 

 

Then you need to decide on which lens…….for a 50mm a Summicron or an Elmar would be ideal. You can also consider newer options like the Summarit or Voigtlander and Zeiss lenses. 

[kentishrev]

Thank you to all.  Given your generous advice, I almost feel guilty to let you know that, after much trawling and ringing around, I've secured an M3 (although you all advised caution) single-wind, that has just had a CLA, together with an almost Mint 50 Summicron version IV (with hood and caps).

 

I moved on from the 'User' option because of your advice and went instead with a dealer for both lens and camera with warranties.  I had shifted my sights to M2, M3 and M4, but the deal I got for the M3 was too good to pass up (and will hold its value if I want to change).  I moved on from the 'Rigid' Summicron given comments, and was very pleased to find the v4 instead. 

 

Really looking forward to playing a part in this forum.  Thank you all.

 

PS. I'm planning to use the iPhone Light Meter (which seems to deliver the same settings as my digital SLR on Av setting)

Edited December 22, 2015 by kentishrev

[asiafish]

v4 Summicron is identical optically to the current v5 model, and it is by accounts an exceptional lens.  Enjoy it.

[pico]

An M6 could be in the longer-term, but [...]

I've seen a good opportunity for a 'User' grade M3 [...]

 

If you start with an M3 and 50mm lens you will never experience the same view with any newer M. It is a fact. Choose wisely.

.

[TomB_tx]

Yes, enjoy it! A good M3 with a 50 is a pleasant and classic combination. Coming from a Pentax MX with its big, bright viewfinder, the M3 should be very comfortable. The M6 will have a wider field of view, but the LED meter readout in the viewfinder will be much like your MX.

I used an MX and LX for years, and preferred the MX.

[pixie]

Enjoy your camera and make great photos.

I still use my battered and flaking M3 more than my other M's.

I prefer the 50mm (Collapsible Summicron) and the bigger finder.

If you acquire longer lenses, 90mm and 135mm you have a decent size frames!

The Tele-Elmar is very sharp and contrasty, even at full open f4..

I have the 35mm f2.8, Goggle-Summaron which I really like.

[Fotoklaus]

Thank you to all.  Given your generous advice, I almost feel guilty to let you know that, after much trawling and ringing around, I've secured an M3 (although you all advised caution) single-wind, that has just had a CLA, together with an almost Mint 50 Summicron version IV (with hood and caps).

So this is a good choice and a great 50mm- combination to have fun for a long time with.

[ademora]

I have recently gone through the same thought process and ended up with an almost mint M2. Lovely camera but through lack of use the slow shutter speeds are sticking, bought it from a dealer who didn't hesitate to do a clean and service. Married with a 50mm is a joy to use