Leica SL (Typ 601) - Mirrorless System Camera Without Compromise

[wlaidlaw]

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Hopefully glare and flare on zoom lenses when used with a highly reflective and totally plane digital sensor is one area that has advanced a lot from the early 2000's. Just like the Leica 28-90R, my similar Zeiss 28-85 also suffers from flare a lot and you have to be quite careful and conscious of the angle of the sun against the front of the lens. My 80-200/4 Vario-Elmar R is nothing like as bad but of course, it has a long tubular sun hood. This must be part of the problem with a standard zoom, that the sun hood has to be flared wide enough not to vignette at the wide end of the lens zoom range but it then provides inadequate shading at the long end of the zoom range. It will be interesting to see how flare proof the new 24-90 is in practice. Are we all going to end up with flappy barn doors, like movie makers use? 

 

Wilson

[k-hawinkler]

Karl-Heinz, I had no idea you were a comedian!

 

Of course the lens isn't a lemon - I've lusted after it for years, but never had a platform for it, and now that I might do, I can't afford it!  I did think about getting one to use with the A7R, but that camera and I fell out before I found one.  I then thought about Leitaxing one for the D800E, but that seemed criminal, and I had the 80-400 zoom so it seemed excessive.

 

I've been thinking about you recently, and the SL 90-280 lens.  The size is really daunting, then I think of what you do with your Sonys and your M and adapters, and somehow it makes me feel better!  I can see I'm going to need to dust off my tripod!

 

I can't recall - do you do much video?

 

Cheers

John

 

 

Thanks John.  Well, you know, sometimes I have these brilliant flashes of insight.        

I agree with you, Leitaxing an R lens I consider sort of a sacrilege! 

When I first bought R lenses back in 2011 I had no cameras to use them on (without modification).

I had Nikon FF cameras and the M9, thought about Leitaxing, but never pursued that.

Luckily the NEX-5N and NEX-7 - though only APS-C format - were available and I finally had a camera for my R lenses.

So, being used to 36 MP of my D800E, I had to get the A7r, when it became available, as my first FF camera to use R lenses on.

Of course, I ran into shutter shock problems with the APO 280/4 and Vario 105-280/4.2 telyts, but made that work anyway.

In contrast the A7r2 with EFCS shutter and IBIS has been a great mostly problem free system for me, including for my R lenses and some of my M lenses.   

 

I am glad Leica proceeded with the SL camera and put a lot of innovation into it.

​Its size doesn't bother me.  I probably would get one if it had IBIS and more pixels.

Maybe Leica will add that in the next iteration.  They really should!

 

I certainly think that the new lenses SL 24-90 and SL 90-280 should be better than their predecessor versions.

Not necessarily optically, but with in-camera corrections as seems to be the fad right now.

I also suspect those lenses to be fully electronically controlled. 

So useable only on a Leica camera unless somebody builds a smart adapter.

 

The APO 280/4 and Vario 105-280/4.2 lenses I only use on a tripod.

For that I use an Induro AT-413 tripod with GHB2 gimbal head.

​My other R lenses from 28 to 200 mm I use primarily handheld.

IBIS provides a stable LiveView image that makes it easy to manually focus handheld.

 

With regards to video.

Lately I have also begun to shoot video clips of children and grandchildren visits, etc.

Sony's 4K video of the A7r2 seems to work pretty well.

 

I also have shot video clips of a fairly large group of Turkey Vultures flying overhead in close proximity.

That could be a scene of a Star Wars movie as those birds are very large and completely quiet.

Also Hummingbirds, a Praying Mantis, and Ants have been a challenge.

Here are a couple of video clips of ants, unedited and ungraded.

 

First in B&W.   https://winklers.smu...-Ants/i-HKhZvSf

Then in color.   https://winklers.smu...-Ants/i-gkFXTmL

 

Shot with A7r2 + APO 280/4 + OUFRO rings.

 

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[lct]

[...] In contrast the A7r2 with EFCS shutter and IBIS has been a great mostly problem free system for me, including for my R lenses [...]

 

I suspect that you may prefer tele lenses but would you have some links to pics shots with R wides by chance? Just curious.

[IkarusJohn]

 Thank you for the links, Karl-Heinz. I can see that video is worth exploring. I don't have such extension tubes, but I do have the M macro adapter, which seems to work well with the T-M adapter. 

 

I will try the Noctilux, the 75 Summilux and 90 Summicron for comparisons. I am a complete novice when it comes to video ...

[k-hawinkler]

Hopefully glare and flare on zoom lenses when used with a highly reflective and totally plane digital sensor is one area that has advanced a lot from the early 2000's. Just like the Leica 28-90R, my similar Zeiss 28-85 also suffers from flare a lot and you have to be quite careful and conscious of the angle of the sun against the front of the lens. My 80-200/4 Vario-Elmar R is nothing like as bad but of course, it has a long tubular sun hood. This must be part of the problem with a standard zoom, that the sun hood has to be flared wide enough not to vignette at the wide end of the lens zoom range but it then provides inadequate shading at the long end of the zoom range. It will be interesting to see how flare proof the new 24-90 is in practice. Are we all going to end up with flappy barn doors, like movie makers use? 

 

Wilson

 

 

I suspect that you may prefer tele lenses but would you have some links to pics shots with R wides by chance? Just curious.

 

Thanks Wilson.  It seems to be that way. 

Of course, with a bit of care one can get useable images, like this one.

 

 

A7r2 + Vario-Elmar-R 28-90/2.8-4.5, shot at 28 mm. 

 

​The next image especially for lct, same camera and lens.   

 

 

The next one shot with WATE at 16mm.

 

Edited October 27, 2015 by k-hawinkler

[lct]

Thank you Karl-Heinz which aperture(s) did you choose for the R pics if i may ask?

[wlaidlaw]

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K-H,

 

I find the flare is worst at the long end of the lens, rather than the wide end and with the sun striking the front element at about 45º.  My guess is that because these lenses were designed pre flat sensors, little to no attention was paid to reflections bouncing off the imaging medium and then off the back surfaces of the elements. I would imagine this is now a major concern for lens makers for top end digital cameras and much more attention will be paid to the coating on back surfaces and eliminating internal reflections. There is a prime (pun not intended) example from recently with the Summicron 50mm APO, where internal reflections were causing all sorts of flare problems. 

 

Wilson

Edited October 27, 2015 by wlaidlaw

[Peter H]

Someone (don't recall who) called me arrogant, and something else intended to be unpleasant, for observing in another thread that for most photography an iPhone is actually the best choice if one wants a light camera.  Now, I agree that perhaps I was more than a little dismissive of people's concerns over weight, but only partly.

 

The point is that more pictures are being taken now than ever before (apparently); most are not printed (and let's be honest, 90% of pictures taken in the film era weren't worth printing anyway - I know mine weren't); most smartphones take better pictures than any compact camera ever took; and life must surely be getting tough for professional photographers.  Once, they were the only ones who knew how to take a photograph at all, now every man and his dog is posting on Instagram, Flickr and Facebook.

 

For camera makers, the effect is twofold - smaller market and less demand for traditional "consumer" products.  The cameras in iPhones really are that good.  On the plus side, that makes developments like the SL that much more important.  If dSLR is declining, that makes the d810 and 5d3 cameras even more important as it is really only that end of the market which is healthy.  That puts Leica with the flagship, but curious M camera and the huge and expensive S camera in a very strange place.  I'm not surprised that the M cameras have enjoyed a resurgence since the M9.  If you like photography, and you want something more than your iPhone, what do you buy?  Not a consumer product - it will be marked "Professional" because you're looking for more than what your smartphone offers, and your smartphone offers a lot.  The growth in interest in the M camera (and film) matches the growth in vinyl records and HiFi (in a remote way).

 

The future for photography, I think, lies in cameras like the M and the S (more rarefied), the D810 and the 5D3.  That's why the SL will probably be one of those moments when we look back and say Leica made the right move - I do think this will be a game changer.

 

Peter, I don't think anyone would call you naive, and I certainly hope you are not levelling that accusation at me.

 

I don't think it was you John, but I wouldn't be offended if it were. 

 

Quite a few people have told me it should have been obvious what was coming. But I genuinely didn't know about any of it beforehand, and I only heard the SL name mooted a couple of days before the announcement, so my surprise was real because I was genuinely expecting a new M announcement as a front-runner among a few vague possibilities. 

 

 

 

Anyway, in summary, I agree about where the camera market is probably going. Camera phones have changed the world of photography in some very profound ways and Leica, like every camera manufacturer, needs to respond. Having a DSLR-style body, albeit it with a nice EVF instead of a mirror/prism/OVF, may be a wise precautionary step, but it feels like catch-up rather than innovation, and I remain disappointed.

 

It looks very nice to my eye, and I'd love to play with one, try out my M and R lenses, and particularly look through that splendid-sounding EVF.  But as the testers have implied, if the M remains the superior body for M lenses, then Leica absolutely must develop a  comprehensive and competitive range of AF lenses quickly before the game moves on again and leaves them behind.

[tyler]

I was hoping that Leica would continue toward the future with another camera like the Q.

 

This SL looks like a move in the wrong direction.

 

At some point,  loyal Leica customers will grow tired of the "boutique" method of photography that costs thousands of dollars to just take a photo, and the older Leica collectors are becoming fewer.

 

Leica has a chance to lead high end users with a camera that measures up to today's technology. So far, they keep playing catchup and  just charging more.

 

I fear Leica has misjudged the market--again.

 

 

tv

Edited October 27, 2015 by tyler

[siddhaarta]

The bigger turn off is his format...as a subscriber we are punished. It is the most difficult way to read an article online, scrolling content is a PITA and being forced into the box viewer is pathetic. Every time I renew I say this is the last time...I wish he would consider his subscribers and stop being so paranoid. It is truly painful to read his content. I would actually pay more if he would just give us a real website.

Really funny, I have exactly the same feelings about his site. If you pay, obviously your quality expectations rise. Sure, he has a good stile of writing, but there are a lot of shortcomings which make me think again: this time was the last time: the problems with the site layout and strange attitude about protecting content, I have not to repeat. The "real world" photos are so small you cannot evaluate them. No downloads of RAW files at all. The studio scenes are quite artificial. In case of the comparison between M and SL with M lenses you can see substantial differences in a 100% cut of the corners but you have no idea if this is relevant if you watch a photo as a whole. Really does not help me at all.

[IkarusJohn]

It is useful in the sense that it tells us it isn't as bad as with the A7 cameras.  That gives me the confidence to say, okay M lenses work just fine with the SL; and that's enough for me.

 

As for folk dancing, the backs of people's heads, endless grey images, reinventing acronyms and claiming credit for Leica designs - I could leave the rest of the content, to be honest.  I recall in previous reviews I would just scroll down to the conclusion rather than test my patience with the site.  Face it, Reid Reviews is not a place you go to for entertainment or light relief, or news ...

[cpclee]

Real innovations in photography are now happening in the Silicon Valley by companies like Apple and Light (check out the Light L16 camera).  A shakeup is coming, and many established players will fold. Samsung just exited the mirrorless business I believe.

Edited October 28, 2015 by cpclee

[k-hawinkler]

It is useful in the sense that it tells us it isn't as bad as with the A7 cameras.  That gives me the confidence to say, okay M lenses work just fine with the SL; and that's enough for me.

 

As for folk dancing, the backs of people's heads, endless grey images, reinventing acronyms and claiming credit for Leica designs - I could leave the rest of the content, to be honest.  I recall in previous reviews I would just scroll down to the conclusion rather than test my patience with the site.  Face it, Reid Reviews is not a place you go to for entertainment or light relief, or news ...

 

Hi John,

 

This, quote: "It is useful in the sense that it tells us it isn't as bad as with the A7 cameras." doesn't really say a lot IMHO.

I would like to see corner detail of SL images with certain M lenses as compared to M240 shots.

 

[IkarusJohn]

Hi John,

 

This, quote: "It is useful in the sense that it tells us it isn't as bad as with the A7 cameras." doesn't really say a lot IMHO.

I would like to see corner detail of SL images with certain M lenses as compared to M240 shots.

 

Hi Karl-Heinz,

 

Oh, I don't know - it tells us it's close to the M and not as bad as the A7r.  How do you quantify it?  Measure blur, smear (which I don't think was there) or softness?  I  find these really hard as I often need the commentary to tell me what I'm looking at and what I'm looking for.

 

My first reaction was - I don't have any CV lenses and I sold the 35 Summicron.  But then I got the point - any challenging wide M lens will throw up the issues, as it's the sensor that's being tested, not the lens.  So, each to make up their own minds, but if the CV and Summicron are as bad as it gets, then it actually looks pretty good ... if ...

 

Speaking purely selfishly, I have the 15 Distagon, 21 Summilux, 28 Summicron, 35 Summilux FLE, 50 Summitar, 50 Summilux ASPH, 0.95 Noctiluc, 75 Summilux and 90 AA Summicron - please test them all and tell me if there's a problem!  Yeah, right!

 

The worry is the 28 Summicron, and I'm waiting for (one day) the 28 Summilux, so you tell me.  Will I have a problem with my M lenses?  You enjoy good success with the A7, so should I be worried?

 

I'm thinking not.

 

Potential buyers can stress about size, weight and cost, and that is their prerogative, but I don't think performance with M lenses (or the speed and performance of the SL zoom) is a worry.

 

Cheers

John

Edited October 28, 2015 by IkarusJohn

[jonoslack]

 

It looks very nice to my eye, and I'd love to play with one, try out my M and R lenses, and particularly look through that splendid-sounding EVF.  But as the testers have implied, if the M remains the superior body for M lenses, then Leica absolutely must develop a  comprehensive and competitive range of AF lenses quickly before the game moves on again and leaves them behind.

Hi there Peter

Whilst it's certainly true that corners at infinity are better with the M240 than with the SL . . . they aren't much better, and certainly not a problem on the SL.

 

It's difficult to get the balance right with this kind of stuff . . .from my point of view using M lenses on the SL is a great alternative - I'll keep on using an M when I  want to use a rangefinder (which is often), but I've no scruples using M lenses on the SL, whereas I found it a frustrating experience on a Sony A7 . . .

 

R lenses are just great . . . 

 

It's quite hard to proffer superlatives on a camera which is (intentionally?) a Jack of All Trades - Actually, it's also a master of some - ( I really doubt there is a better full frame zoom option anywhere). 

 

Whatever  -  I've had the camera for two months (quite long enough for the gloss to have worn off) . . and I've just confirmed my order today. 

[IkarusJohn]

Thanks Jono - I was starting to wear your name out (with apologies to Shakespeare in Love)

[jonoslack]

Hi John,

 

This, quote: "It is useful in the sense that it tells us it isn't as bad as with the A7 cameras." doesn't really say a lot IMHO.

I would like to see corner detail of SL images with certain M lenses as compared to M240 shots.

Hi There Karl-Heinz

I have a raft of comparisons between the SL and the A7ii which I'm working up into some kind of a piece.

. . and I think that Sean Reid either has, or is about to post a comparison with the M

[k-hawinkler]

Hi There Karl-Heinz

I have a raft of comparisons between the SL and the A7ii which I'm working up into some kind of a piece.

. . and I think that Sean Reid either has, or is about to post a comparison with the M

 

Thanks Jono.  I am eagerly looking forward to that piece.

 

 

[jonoslack]

Thanks Jono - I was starting to wear your name out (with apologies to Shakespeare in Love)

Well John - I must say the real thing is a bit worn out tonight! I've sent you an email (at last). 

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[dkCambridgeshire]

I'm looking forward to an 'in depth' review of the SL with R lenses … specifically with the Solms designed R zooms and R primes … because the Messiah has finally arrived! 

 

" … I never said sell your R lenses … keep them ... " - Stefan Daniel talking to Thorsten Overgaard, Photokina, Sept 19 2012.

 

dunk