Leica SL (Typ 601) - Mirrorless System Camera Without Compromise

[zeleny]

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What is your point?

My point is that your asseverations of obviousness bolstered by hearsay fall far short of first-hand experience.

[pico]

Well, err, yes. It's pretty obvious to see, and as I said a number of people who have been trying the SL have remarked about it being uncomfortable to hand-hold for any length of time. 

 

Hearsay.

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[earleygallery]

Hearsay.

 

Reviews. 

[psss]

Hearsay.

not for me....i am 6ft4 and my hands are in proportion.....i have shot large MF (mamiya, rolleiflex, fuji) cameras handheld as well as large DSLRs and even movie cameras.....this SL body in a good size  for me....but with the 24-90 it does become a little hard to handle.....forget about walking around with it....if i end up getting the SL, the grip can't come fast enough.....

[rshseow]

....... an accessory wrist strap and multifunction hand grip are available .. and just like the DMR (have you ever used one and experienced the ergonomics of its wrist strap?) will probably make the SL comfortable in use for long periods.

 

dunk[/size][/font]

 

Yes I see your points. I did looped the SL cushioned shoulder strap round my right palm at one point of the time, with the SL24-90 on it. It did help to reduce tension on my fingers.

 

I think the current form of grip is a conscious design choice, to blend in with the overall boxy straight line with simple curve look.

 

As the SL body is milled from a single block of metal (aluminum?), making the grip contoured is feasible, probably challenging for the covering leatherette to stick on; This makes me remember my Pentax 67 hand grip, made of metal and wood, it's big and it's the contour on the grip that makes it comfortable to hold such a big and heavy camera.

[rshseow]

Had a similar experience today at my local store. Camera feels good, is super responsive and the EVF is spectacular. I wish they would offer it on the next M, either build in or as an external attachment. In my view better than the optical viewfinder as you can see the final image with depth of field etc.

 

I was told the sensor is different for this model compared to M240 despite same megapixel. Makes me wonder if the image quality also differs for M, R or SL lenses. Also I guess the distance between sensor and these different lens types can only be optimized for one (which should be SL) and the others are a compromise, but maybe I am wrong. Perhaps they can tweak this with Firmware.

 

If they had given this a >=36 MP sensor it might be tempting (I often crop images and wish there were more MP) but until the next version is released it is no threat to my M.

The very HD and large view EVF is certainly a great advantage SL601 offer for shooting experience and manual focus. It allows me to judge easily if the AF is spot on or not, before I shoot.

 

I see your points on 36MP.

 

The SL works well with my 50Lux and 18SEM, during my test yesterday. My friendly Leica Store personnel (despite of I saying I don't like huge lenses and won't buy the Noct) let me test the Noct 0.95 chrome version. It matches its corner performance on the M240. I posted the jpg samples in Facebook Leica SL Type 601 User Group.

 

I tested a Elmarit-R 60mm and it works well also, I did not have time to test the Elmarit-R 24mm.

[rshseow]

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How would you compare the quickness of manual focusing compared to an optical rangefinder? I didn't find focusing on the M240's EVF to be as snappy as with the rangefinder especially for lenses wider than 28mm.

 

For 50Noct at f0.95, 1.4; 50Lux at f1.4; spot-on focus is more guaranteed than the optical RF on M240, and clarity of the very HD EVF allows spot-on focus much easier than the low-res EVF on the M240.

 

For both lenses above at very close range at wide open; to ensure accurate focus, especially off center focus and accurate framing, the SL wins, the ORF, EVF, rear LCD all can't do the job well.

 

For all the above listed, focus accuracy is more critical than speed to focus.

 

For 18SEM, it makes framing and off center "focus assurance check" easy.

 

For doing all those listed below, optical range finder ORF of the M240 is much faster.

 

For focusing M lenses of 18mm to 50mm at f2.8 and above, I prefer ORF over EVF, the same applies for focusing M lenses of 60mm to 90mm at f4 and above.

 

For zone focusing at f5.6 to f11 on M lenses of wide and up to 50 mm, optical RF on M240 is much more intuitive and effective to use. Framing can be done by the OVF, Rear LED display and EVF of M240

[cpclee]

So basically, for wider lenses or smaller apertures, the optical rangefinder still is quicker to focus than the EVF.  That is not unreasonable a finding.

 

 

For 50Noct at f0.95, 1.4; 50Lux at f1.4; spot-on focus is more guaranteed than the optical RF on M240, and clarity of the very HD EVF allows spot-on focus much easier than the low-res EVF on the M240.

For both lenses above at very close range at wide open; to ensure accurate focus, especially off center focus and accurate framing, the SL wins, the ORF, EVF, rear LCD all can't do the job well.

For all the above listed, focus accuracy is more critical than speed to focus.

For 18SEM, it makes framing and off center "focus assurance check" easy.

For doing all those listed below, optical range finder ORF of the M240 is much faster.

For focusing M lenses of 18mm to 50mm at f2.8 and above, I prefer ORF over EVF, the same applies for focusing M lenses of 60mm to 90mm at f4 and above.

For zone focusing at f5.6 to f11 on M lenses of wide and up to 50 mm, optical RF on M240 is much more intuitive and effective to use. Framing can be done by the OVF, Rear LED display and EVF of M240

[cpclee]

I've noted this elsewhere on this forum, that the SL simply does not look as ergonomic as the S2 or the R8 / R9. (The SL was not designed by Manfred Meinzer like the rest.)  There is one video review I saw which joked that one needs "action figure hands" to grip the SL well.

 

 

 

It probably is - and that's because it has an ergonomically designed body and grip. 

Edited October 29, 2015 by cpclee

[Peter H]

It looks to me as though the SL's ergonomics are similar to an M with its grip attached.

 

My experience with the M is that when you first try it with the grip it feels really good, but if you use the camera for a full day, it's actually more comfortable without the grip. Since we're told by those who've held the SL in their own hands that it doesn't feel terribly different from an M, (lenses aside), I'd expect a similar result.

[jonoslack]

Well, err, yes. It's pretty obvious to see, and as I said a number of people who have been trying the SL have remarked about it being uncomfortable to hand-hold for any length of time. 

 

 

Well

I shot it for two months - notably a whole day shooting one hand with the 24-90 in the pouring rain - nearly 1000 shots - and I didn't find it uncomfortable. I guess I have fairly small hands, and I can't easily reach the front function button (the only criticism). Then later nearly 3 weeks in Crete walking, this time mostly with the 35-70 and M lenses, but I always carry the camera in one hand, and again, I didn't find it uncomfortable. . . . . . of course I'm seriously stoical and hard wearing

[jonoslack]

So basically, for wider lenses or smaller apertures, the optical rangefinder still is quicker to focus than the EVF.  That is not unreasonable a finding.

 

The difficulty is that people who have spent the last 10-20-30 or more years learning how to focus with an optical rangefinder .  . . . are spending 10 minutes with the SL EVF and deciding that it's quicker with the M. 

I think that accurate focusing with an EVF is a skill, and just like focusing with an M it needs practice (preferably without the props of focus peaking and zooming in). 

[ramarren]

The difficulty is that people who have spent the last 10-20-30 or more years learning how to focus with an optical rangefinder .  . . . are spending 10 minutes with the SL EVF and deciding that it's quicker with the M. 

I think that accurate focusing with an EVF is a skill, and just like focusing with an M it needs practice (preferably without the props of focus peaking and zooming in). 

 

I think that's absolutely the case, Jono, and thank you for saying it.

 

Likewise, using focus magnification and/or focus peaking takes some learning, both to determine when they're actually an aid and then to determine just what they're telling you. After that, practice hones the skill. 

 

Our regional Leica rep will be at my local dealer with an SL next Friday so I'll get to see one in the flesh soon!

[wlaidlaw]

 

 

I guess I have fairly small hands, and I can't easily reach the front function button (the only criticism). 

Jono, 

 

Do you feel that sticking a soft plastic dome onto the front function button would help, given that I also have quite small hands plus they are arthritic? I found that helped a lot on the M240 (3M clear plastic, self-adhesive dome), particularly when using the MF grip. It meant you did not need to grope around for the button in its recess but could feel it instantly. 

 

Wilson

[dhsimmonds]

Well

I shot it for two months - notably a whole day shooting one hand with the 24-90 in the pouring rain - nearly 1000 shots - and I didn't find it uncomfortable. I guess I have fairly small hands, and I can't easily reach the front function button (the only criticism). Then later nearly 3 weeks in Crete walking, this time mostly with the 35-70 and M lenses, but I always carry the camera in one hand, and again, I didn't find it uncomfortable. . . . . . of course I'm seriously stoical and hard wearing

 Ah, but Jono you have the comfort of knowing that you still have your excellent Olympus E-M5ll to relieve the wrist ache afterwards! 

Edited October 31, 2015 by dhsimmonds

[LocalHero1953]

With the M240 and an EM5ii, my take on the OVF/RF vs EVF focussing is this.

I have 30+ years' experience with Leica RF focussing, and I agree that EVF focusing has a learning curve. I use the EM5ii mainly indoors and often in low light. I've given up on focus magnification as a technique (I end up disorientated, with no idea which bit of the image I'm looking at). But I find focus peaking an excellent aid to fast focusing (perhaps because in low light the peaking glitter is not as overwhelming as I've heard it reported). I may try switching off peaking to see if it is even easier focusing that way, but it is currently not a problem. Focusing this way with the EM5ii is a totally different (better) experience to the M+EVF: if your only experience of an EVF is the Leica, then I suggest you try something better before drawing conclusions about EVF focusing. None of this is to say that I don't like OVF/RF focusing - I'm very happy with it on the M.

 

I use AF mainly for rugrats, where it has a slightly higher hit rate than manual focusing, but not much. I do use back button focusing, which i see as a variant of manual focusing - at least it's similarly predictable. In low light, though, even this can be slower than manual focusing.

 

Edit. My experience of modern AF is limited to the EM5ii - I realise there may be better/faster implementations, but I haven't tried them.

Edited October 31, 2015 by LocalHero1953

[Rick]

Some interesting bits from Kristian Dowling:  http://kristiandowling.com/blog/2015/10/22/meeting-with-the-leica-sl-type-601-designers

 

Rick

[wlaidlaw]

Some interesting bits from Kristian Dowling:  http://kristiandowling.com/blog/2015/10/22/meeting-with-the-leica-sl-type-601-designers

 

Rick

That link has been posted before on the SL part of the forum. The article is a tad sycophantic......."and here's one our PR wonk wrote earlier." 

 

Wilson

[LocalHero1953]

That link has been posted before on the SL part of the forum. The article is a tad sycophantic......."and here's one our PR wonk wrote earlier." 

 

Wilson

Indeed. I like his work and respect him, but his reviews are rather too obviously partisan (though he makes it clear he is a Leica Ambassador). I have ordered the SL, but his review wasn't one I based my decision on.

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Hallo,

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[wlaidlaw]

Indeed. I like his work and respect him, but his reviews are rather too obviously partisan (though he makes it clear he is a Leica Ambassador). I have ordered the SL, but his review wasn't one I based my decision on.

Ditto