Leica Upgrade program for M9 ( corrosion of sensor)

[k-hawinkler]

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Well Jaapv, let's see. Sensor failure twice is not "virtually unknown" it is "known"....it has happened to me.

 

Leica have clearly acknowledged they have problems with M9 sensors.

 

It is quite possible that there is a significant sleeping issue out there. My M9 was purchased relatively early in the model's life and has now had time to go through two sensor failures. Others are experiencing sensor issues. As more time passes what will happen?

 

Sensors are being replaced with identical types of sensors as far as I can make out. If this is a problem that develops over time, then I cannot see how it will go away by simply renewing the issue with the same sensor. In fact that way of solving the problem has the potential to perpetuate itself and grow further in a way that may become very difficult for Leica to handle long term (not good for any of us).

 

I am grateful for Leica's forthright acknowledgement of the problems and gracious acceptance of liability, however, am very concerned that Leica's approach may not solve the problem but perpetuate it.

 

I know you think a second failure is unlikely but I do not think it is any more unlikely than a first failure if they just replace sensors with the same units (think about it). It happened to me. It could happen to you.

 

 

All excellent points!

I see you live in Australia.

How is the climate at your specific location?

Hot and humid?

Or temperate and dry?

[amusong]

k-hawinkler

 

I live in the mid north coast of New South Wales, Australia where the environment is temperate. No frosts but down to close to freezing point in winter. Summers can be hot and muggy with high humidities at times. I also live near the sea.

 

However, my sensor problem is not related to slowly developing corrosion but was a sudden failure from one shot to the next. When originally repaired by Leica I did not receive a clear diagnosis of the failure so I don't really know what happened, but the same thing has happened again this time.

 

Thanks for your supporting comments.

 

Jaapv,

 

Thanks for your career advice by the way, but I would worry that, as a gambler, I would only have bad luck and that only vary rare bad things would happen to me!

 

Also, it is probably also worth noting that any comment about how rare or frequent this issue is, is likely to suffer from the following three problems:

1. Not all owners may be reporting their M9 sensor problems on this or any other site, although as you have suggested, many will have.
   
2. Not all problems have necessarily yet developed within the cameras themselves - there may be other failures yet to occur (my experience suggests this possibility), so the eventual "size" of the issue cannot yet really be known.
   
3. Only Leica will know how many failures have occurred to date, and I not aware that they have released this information
   

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[otto.f]

Amusong

I'm almost certain that what you have is not a sensor problem and that Leica will help you out without costs no matter the warranty periods

[k-hawinkler]

k-hawinkler

 

I live in the mid north coast of New South Wales, Australia where the environment is temperate. No frosts but down to close to freezing point in winter. Summers can be hot and muggy with high humidities at times. I also live near the sea.

 

However, my sensor problem is not related to slowly developing corrosion but was a sudden failure from one shot to the next. When originally repaired by Leica I did not receive a clear diagnosis of the failure so I don't really know what happened, but the same thing has happened again this time.

 

Thanks for your supporting comments.

 

 

Yep, that's what it looks like.

My guess, some electronic component failed.

I hope Leica will list all that they will replace.

Good luck with the repair.

[jaapv]

Well Jaapv, let's see. Sensor failure twice is not "virtually unknown" it is "known"....it has happened to me.

 

Leica have clearly acknowledged they have problems with M9 sensors.

 

It is quite possible that there is a significant sleeping issue out there. My M9 was purchased relatively early in the model's life and has now had time to go through two sensor failures. Others are experiencing sensor issues. As more time passes what will happen?

 

Sensors are being replaced with identical types of sensors as far as I can make out. If this is a problem that develops over time, then I cannot see how it will go away by simply renewing the issue with the same sensor. In fact that way of solving the problem has the potential to perpetuate itself and grow further in a way that may become very difficult for Leica to handle long term (not good for any of us).

 

I am grateful for Leica's forthright acknowledgement of the problems and gracious acceptance of liability, however, am very concerned that Leica's approach may not solve the problem but perpetuate it.

 

I know you think a second failure is unlikely but I do not think it is any more unlikely than a first failure if they just replace sensors with the same units (think about it). It happened to me. It could happen to you.

Hmm.. that is the word virtually. Probabilities do multiply statistically. Anyway the failure related to is probably not a sensor failure but a motherboard failure and as such wholly unrelated to the delamination issue.

A camera particularly prone to it was the Digilux2, we have seen it far less often on the digital Ms.

Edited December 13, 2014 by jaapv

[David Hughes]

Hmm.. that is the word virtually. Probabilities do multiply statistically. Anyway the failure related to is probably not a sensor failure but a motherboard failure and as such wholly unrelated to the delamination issue.

A camera particularly prone to it was the Digilux2, we have seen it far less often on the digital Ms.

 

Hi,

 

I wish you hadn't mentioned the Digilux 2. After being returned to Solms and fitted with a new sensor or whatever it was back then I had hopes of keeping it and using it as it's a very pleasant camera to use...

 

Regards, David

[george_b]

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Who will want to buy a secondhand M9? It becomes very low value if there are long term reliability issues.

[otto.f]

Who will want to buy a secondhand M9? It becomes very low value if there are long term reliability issues.

 

You don't want to sell an M9

[k-hawinkler]

I will not sell my Leica M9 or Nikon D200.

 

They both have CCD sensors, I believe the last such sensors in cameras by those companies.

I would like to keep those cameras in good working condition.

On my D200 (bought in 2007) a board controlling the shutter had to be replaced.

On my M9 (bought in 2009) the frame selector lever had to be repaired.

 

I live in a very dry climate, so no obvious de-lamination problems yet. Knock on wood!

[amusong]

Jaapv,

 

Of course at this stage, not being a camera technician, I cannot say for certain that I have had another sensor failure until the camera is returned to Leica. However, when it failed the first time (and the photos above are from that first failure not this second most recent failure):

1. The repair report I received was that the sensor had been replaced. Perhaps something else had been wrong and they just fixed that and then went on to replace the sensor as a goodwill gesture. I assumed, however, that the sensor had indeed been faulty.
   
2. You, a respected member of this forum, after reviewing the same photos posted above, told me I had a "dead sensor" (see http://www.l-camera-forum.com/leica-forum/leica-m9-forum/274431-m9-bizarre-sensor-shutter-failure-help.html) Item #8
   

Sure...it may not be a second sensor failure, but I have good reasons to think so.

 

If I may quibble a little with your statistics, anyone buying a new camera today can multiply the probabilities of a single failure together to arrive at the probabilty of having multiple sensor failures over the life of the camera, IF that probability is known. It will be a very small number. But if you only take past data (failures which have occurred to date and which have been reported), you may well underestimate the true probability of a single failure, as there may be many latent failures that have not yet happened, simply because not enough time has passed.

 

In addition, once a failure has occurred, and IF the sensor is replaced with exactly the same unit, then the probability of a second failure is now, after the repair, exactly the same as the probability of the first failure. You do not multiply the two probabilities together to produce a much smaller probability, you are back where you started, as I am.

 

However, I don't really wish to get caught up in a debate about statistics. That would obscure the outstanding thing that Leica has done in offering to sort their identified sensor issues free of charge. For this they have my respect.

 

My point really is, can Leica tell us why the replacement of a sensor with another of the same type would be an effective permanent solution?

 

Having had what I believe are two sensor failures, I believe I am entitled to ask this question.

[jaapv]

Sensor and motherboard are one unit that is always replaced in its entirety. The shorthand used by CS is “sensor replaced” regardless which part was broken, as is “sensor failure” in general. Pars pro toto and all that.

The photos you show are very typical of a motherboard that has failed. As such it is extremely rare if not impossible for a sensor to break down electronically. The common breakdowns are dead/hot pixels and pixel rows For the rest it is basically always an electronic component on the print it is soldered to.

The electronic breakdowns you suffered were never part of the recent guaranty discussion. Those have always been solved by Leica without quibble.

Edited December 14, 2014 by jaapv

[Joewdwd]

Thanks Leica although this took a long time. I had spots on my M9 and sent it off to an authorised Leica service centre. Sensor was replaced for no cost but my camera was away for five, yes five months. I have had it back for 8 months and it has more sensor spots on it again even though the lens has not been off the camera since I picked it up from the repair centre. I was so disenfranchised my beloved M9 has been sitting hardly used over the last last 8 months while I have been contemplating selling it. Reputations are hard won and easily lost. Leica needs to show the improved service is there now for the long term.

Joe

[amusong]

Thanks Jaapv,

 

That is comforting news.

 

At the moment I feel like Joewdwd who also appears to be having problems with a second sensor. Like him, as you can probably tell from my posts (and although I love my M9 when it is working) I am also somewhat disenchanted with my overall M9 experience.

 

However, we have to give Leica the opportunity to sort this out before becoming too negative about them, and I will box my M9 up and send it off tomorrow.

[Ivar B]

I have not had the time to follow this discussion in detail, so please forgive me iff this issue has been raised before.

 

Leica will replace affected sensors. I have not detected this problem on my M9-P, and I take it that Leica will not replace a sensor that appears to be undamaged? Or, can I expect that the problem will show sooner or later?

 

Does the problem only occur if the sensor has been (uncarefully) cleaned with a liquid so that the coating is damaged? This is something I have never done.

 

Perhaps Jaap knows?

[rafikiphoto]

I think they may have been doing this for a while without saying. I sent my MM to Solms in January this year for a straightforward sensor clean. The feed back was that they weren't happy with the sensor and so had replaced it. It was showing some aberrations (which hadn't been apparent to me).

[RobRowe]

Thank you.

[povlj]

At this stage, I would enjoy your camera. Look every now and then to see if there's a problem (stop your lens down to f/16, set focus at infinity and take a picture of blue sky or a blank wall - you will see sensor dirt and any delamination).

 

I had cover glass separation (at least, that's what I think it was) and Leica replaced my sensor a year or so ago. I'm pleased that the initial response (posted on Leica Rumours) has been withdrawn, and that Leica has accepted that it will need to replace any affected sensor, whatever its age. It is unrealistic to tell Leica owners not to clean their sensors when the shutter (particularly on newer M9s) throws so much oil and muck onto the sensor. Cleaning is part of normal use.

 

Stefan Daniel's post above is nothing less than what I would expect from Leica (or from him personally), and it gives me tremendous faith that Leica is a brand I will continue with. However, there is now a conundrum ...

 

I have a Monochrom (my favourite camera) and an M9P - I love these cameras and I get a real thrill from using them. I had ordered the M Edition 60, and was quite excited by it, but sense prevailed and I canceled my order - my M9P is all the camera I need. Now, there is the prospect that both my sensors may be affected, or may be affected in the future - that is not something I want to hear. I will check them, and I will continue to use the cameras in comfort that if they do get affected, Leica will either repair them, or if they can't they will give me a good discount on a new camera. That is the Leica that I bought into.

 

But, it does mean that my cameras have even lower resale value, and I will probably trade them on the next digital M iteration - at a significant loss. I feel very sad about that. On the plus side, maybe Leica will produce a standard version of the M Edition 60, or at least a new, updated version of the M9P/M-E for those of us who don't want the more complex M(240) replacement ... For myself (as I've said before) I think the M(240) is half-baked in some of its iteration (EVF, video, focus peaking etc), which takes the shine off what is apparently very good about the camera (the sensor and the RF).

 

So, thank you Leica for responding promptly and in the way we expect from such a premium brand (that also looks after its loyal customers). I will buy your next M camera, and I will support you in future - but it will cost me in the sense that my two top of the line cameras are flawed, and I will have to replace them sooner than I thought I would.

 

It is what it is, and I would expect nothing more than what Leica has promised to do (except of course doing their best to ensure that this sort of thing doesn't happen in the future - improved design and quality control, perhaps?)

 

Cheers

John

Thanks, John. Very helpful. But still confused as to what delamination really looks like, and how it shows up in picture. I will stop down to f/16, etc and look, but how does delamination display itself?

[IkarusJohn]

It won't, until it is really very bad.

 

When my first sensor failed, I noticed an odd texture in the sky of an image. When I stopped down to f/16 and focussed at infinity, there was an obvious pale pattern on parts of the sensor. Leica replaced the sensor.

 

This time round, I have three very fine lines running across the sensor (much like those posted above), with a white halo around them. I have to look for them, and at this stage there is no image degradation. So, I will take my M9 on holiday with me next month, and I'll send it off to Wetzlar in February.

 

I'll also watch to see what Leica releases next year.

 

Cheers

John

[Cyril Jayant]

This is the response I have been waiting for and expecting, knowing Leica for four decades.

 

We knew this too since the beginning of first M8 and guess there are many more to come. At last this is turning point for Leica to keep up with the Digital market and assure his Leica devotees the confidence it gained by introducing from the first Leica camera longtime ago.

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[Cyril Jayant]

Me too Jaap

excellent response, and it should really give people confidence

 

the next trick is to organise the upgrades so that people only send their camera in when Leica are ready to replace the sensor (rather than waiting for ages)

 

I agree with Jono better do it until it comes to you next.

It seems all the batches of the sensors in all models are venerable for the problem