Does Leica service match their great products

[jaapv]

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Umm.. faults that develop over time - like sensor corrosion or LCD coffee stain, and things like updates and design faults like the S AF problem - how can those be relevant for QC? Show me one quality inspector who can pick those up during the production process...

[Jeff S]

Umm.. faults that develop over time - like sensor corrosion or LCD coffee stain, and things like updates and design faults like the S AF problem - how can those be relevant for QC? Show me one quality inspector who can pick those up during the production process...

Inconsistent long term reliability, for whatever reasons. I left out a bunch, too, like M8 IR issues.

 

And lots of short term stuff, too.... cracked sensors, red edge, SD card compatibility, buffer issues, strap lugs, freeze-ups, etc.

 

Some of this likely a result of innovation and progress.... 1st digital M, 1st full frame digital M, etc. But still a fact, whatever you call it. And often made worse by Leica silence on various issues until pushed by customers right here on the forum.

 

Jeff

Edited October 3, 2017 by Jeff S

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[PFM]

Well, I now have my own tale of woe dealing with Leica USA.  I sent my Elmarit-R 2.8/28 in for a repair towards the end of May, 2017 (the focus ring had broken, probably because of old lubricant).  I got it back on Nov 29th.  This was after being told it was being worked on in August, and then in mid October it would be in my hands "by the end of next week.", which would have been Nov 4th.

 

In actuality, it was repaired on Nov 18, 2017, and then shipped a week later on the 24th.  It was only three hours charged to do the repair.  I sent them an e-mail stating how discouraged I was to ever send another piece to them for repair, and answered the survey I was sent with a lot of dissatisfies, and very dissatisfies.  I then got an answer to my e-mail stating that the person I talked to on the phone, and answered my e-mails  was only passing on the information from the service department.

 

After my initial phone call back in May to get the information to mail in the lens, I decided not to call anymore because I could hardly understand who I was talking to, and they certainly didn't understand what I was saying.  But it doesn't matter who was giving me the run around, it's just bad business practice to do so without a plausible explanation.  If they had just said they were swamped with sensor repairs, and that I was behind X number of jobs, then kept me apprised of where that stood from time to time (you're now at X -20), it would have been okay.

 

I used to tell folks that I aspired to own some Leica cameras one day, but I don't feel that way anymore.  If my R system starts breaking down on a regular basis, then it will be the last Leica stuff I'll ever own.

 

PF

 

ps:  I cannot fault the work done on the lens though.  It came back clean as a whistle, and functioning very smoothly.  Just wish I hadn't had to wait almost six months for it to be fixed.

Edited December 7, 2017 by PFM

[jaapv]

The R system was discontinued over ten years ago... It is not unreasonable that it breaks down occasionally. It is rather a plus that it is still repairable. Not that it will be economically viable in most cases. I would suggest making use of a third party specialist.

[PFM]

The R system was discontinued over ten years ago... It is not unreasonable that it breaks down occasionally. It is rather a plus that it is still repairable. Not that it will be economically viable in most cases. I would suggest making use of a third party specialist.

Well, for folks like you who have dealt with Wetzlar or Sohms for most of your life, it's quite possibly a different story altogether.  I for one don't think my experience would have been any different if I had sent in a M2, or an M10.  Being new to the system I don't have any pull when it comes to greasing the wheels at Leica USA.  I just like to take photos, and it doesn't matter to me what equipment I have to do that.  I won't demand that having only one system is the way to go, since I don't weld myself to one style.  And I'm not making money at photography either (that was a long time ago), so I don't feel like lying to them about being in a rush for some important shoot I have coming up, even though I did miss some opportunities in the meantime.

 

I checked around before making the decision to send my lens to Allendale, Jaap, and couldn't find anyone to do the work (I knew better than to ask Don, Sherry, or Ye).  They had all quit working on the R system for one reason or another.  Now, I'm not bad mouthing the system, as with any brand there are going to be some miscues along the way.  But after my experience with Leica USA, I'm not investing anymore into my R gear, and will chalk this up to a slightly expensive learning process.

 

I'm just getting too old to be wasting time and money on some over priced, and over hyped camera gear.  It takes all the fun out of photography.

 

PF

[jaapv]

You talk like the R system is something current and you bought it from the factory yesterday. It was discontinued a decade ago, the lens you had the issue with was probably three decades old. The factory does not even have the production facility for parts any more. Quite a few items are irreparable or not economically worth repairing, spare parts don't exist any more, for instance, lens elements and electronic parts.

It has entered the stage where Leica will support it where they can, but don't expect miracles.

 

Why did you know better than to ask a reputed repair specialist? I am sure that the USA has more than one person repairing historical camera gear. Will van Manen happily fixed my 80-200 when it lost its focusing, I doubt that any other less  specialized shop would respond differently.

I can hardly call the R system overpriced or overhyped, I can buy a camera body, from 150 to 400$ depending on the model, and many lenses are total bargains considering the quality. Not surprising if it is so far from the mainstream and is only used by a small niche of enthusiasts.

 

I think it is totally unreasonable to take Leica USA to task in this particular instance, much as I am concerned about the recent spate of justified customer complaints we are seeing in this forum. Nor do I think that the Sales Department at Leica will be very worried about somebody deciding to pull out of the R system.
 

[wattsy]

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You talk like the R system is something current and you bought it from the factory yesterday. It was discontinued a decade ago, the lens you had the issue with was probably three decades old. The factory does not even have the production facility for parts any more. Quite a few items are irreparable or not economically worth repairing, spare parts don't exist any more, for instance, lens elements and electronic parts.

It has entered the stage where Leica will support it where they can, but don't expect miracles.

 

 

What has this got to do with the poster's complaint? The poster stated that he/she was happy with the actual work that was done (and presumably the price too) but was extremely dissatisfied by how the repair process was conducted by Leica – being given the runaround, false promises, etc.

[jaapv]

Everything - I don't think there is cause for complaint in this case. Leica did repair an old, obsolete piece of equipment that has been out of production for ages, clearly well and presumably for a reasonable price. They probably had to find a tecnician who was acquainted with the lens, and who was undoubtedly fully ocupied with the current problems with more recent, still officially supported gear. that we all know about -Which, by the way, come under the heading of (more than justified) complaints-

Of course it was put on the back burner a couple of times. Maybe they had to wait for a part or specialized tool to come from Germany or ran into an unexpected problem. I know some R lenses are very hard to open up as there was some kind of glue used in the threads of the barrel which hardens over time, for instance.

 

I think that is quite understandable.

[gyoung]

But if thats the case an explanation would be simple, it's the communication that was the problem, promises made and not kept,

Thats simply not treating your customers with respect and its irrelevant how old the lens is. Courtesy is needed or your customers will go away.

 

Gerry

[Luke_Miller]

But if thats the case an explanation would be simple, it's the communication that was the problem, promises made and not kept,

Thats simply not treating your customers with respect .......

 

Exactly.  Promises made by Leica NJ and not kept and then requests for explanation ignored.  Then when my dealer got involved there were more promises made and not kept. I do some paid work, but use my Nikons - I can get them repaired quickly if necessary.

Edited December 8, 2017 by Luke_Miller

[PFM]

For what it's worth, Jaap (and I don't think you'll come off your insinuation that I'm a whiner for owning an R system), it only took them three hours to fix the lens. That's all. And that was done two weeks after they promised it would be back in my hands.  So I don't think there was anything to do with hard to source parts, or difficult construction of the lens.

 

You would think that a company such as Leica would take more pride in their customer service, so that someone such as I who had admired them from afar for many decades, and had recently taken the plunge into ownership, would not be reduced to saying "Leica? Who cares about them?"

 

I've used many tools my entire working life, and that includes my camera gear.  The best tool for the job is the one that does it best is what I've always gone by.  Therefore, I own, or have owned more than one type of camera system the last forty some years. This is the first time I've had to deal with a company owned repair facility, and they let me down, as they have many others.  No matter how much you try to defend Leica USA, the fact of the matter is they have lost control of their work stream, and don't know how to explain to the customer in a truthful fashion the reason for delay in getting the job done.  I don't have the resources to own multiple copies of my R system components like some folks do, so that sending off something for repair for six months at a time really puts a crimp in my style, and limits the usefulness of the system.

 

Time may soften my feelings about all this, and as I get to use the system more now that the lens is back I will appreciate the engineering that went into it, and the images it produces.  But I'll never forget how I was treated by the Allendale repair shop.

 

PF

[MarkP]

Having previously had a lens in Solms for over 6 months for correction of a poorly done initial service, I'm completely supportive of PF's complaint.  The lack of communication, broken timeline promises, crap excuses, and complete powerlessness to progress the situation is what made me and obviously PF furious.

 

 

PF, stick with Leica (and this Forum), the benefits still outweigh the at times crap and inexcusably slow service. Most R lenses continue to be serviceable.  Watching from afar (Australia), no-one seems to have much positive to say about Leica NJ. Next time, where you can, use DAG or Sherry Kauter. I've dealt with them from here - excellent, prompt,  and surprisingly well priced service.

Edited December 9, 2017 by MarkP

[M9reno]

This is the thread I like to read whenever I feel GAS. It works like an Alka Seltzer.

[MarkP]

Or a led (lead) zeppelin, to continue with the GAS theme.

[gyoung]

After poor experience with an R4 from Leica uk more than 25 years ago I swore to keep clear of Leica electronics, I'm happy with my M3 and III, and was with the M6ttl when I had it, plenty of good repairmen around who can do those without charging absurd hourly rates. Not that they NEED much servicing.

 

Gerry

[jaapv]

For what it's worth, Jaap (and I don't think you'll come off your insinuation that I'm a whiner for owning an R system), it only took them three hours to fix the lens. That's all. And that was done two weeks after they promised it would be back in my hands.  So I don't think there was anything to do with hard to source parts, or difficult construction of the lens.

 

You would think that a company such as Leica would take more pride in their customer service, so that someone such as I who had admired them from afar for many decades, and had recently taken the plunge into ownership, would not be reduced to saying "Leica? Who cares about them?"

 

I've used many tools my entire working life, and that includes my camera gear.  The best tool for the job is the one that does it best is what I've always gone by.  Therefore, I own, or have owned more than one type of camera system the last forty some years. This is the first time I've had to deal with a company owned repair facility, and they let me down, as they have many others.  No matter how much you try to defend Leica USA, the fact of the matter is they have lost control of their work stream, and don't know how to explain to the customer in a truthful fashion the reason for delay in getting the job done.  I don't have the resources to own multiple copies of my R system components like some folks do, so that sending off something for repair for six months at a time really puts a crimp in my style, and limits the usefulness of the system.

 

Time may soften my feelings about all this, and as I get to use the system more now that the lens is back I will appreciate the engineering that went into it, and the images it produces.  But I'll never forget how I was treated by the Allendale repair shop.

 

PF

I do not (intend to) insinuate anything of the kind ; I was saying that in this case Leica should be cut some slack: an old lens, a rough period of overload, and still it got repaired, even if it was badly communicated and chaotically organized. 

As for the many, many complaints about the "service" by CS, for a large part in the USA but certainly from time to time Solms/Wetzlar as well, I can only agree that it should not happen.

One must wonder why it seems to be so difficult to streamline the repair service. Is it a question of scale? Too small to handle overloads efficiently, too expensive to have it stand by overstaffed in calmer times?

[Luke_Miller]

One has to wonder about the Opportunity Cost in the US by Leica's decision to retain the inefficient and unresponsive service at Leica NJ.  Surely it costs them sales and possibly dealers due to customer complaints and their own repair experience.  I have to think that the money saved by not correcting the situation is significantly less than the loss in sales that is the consequence.

 

Normally I only purchase products where I have an expectation of reasonable service.  A similar experience with Nikon  would have resulted in them being dropped like a hot rock.  Unfortunately I am passionate about my Ms, so I must endure the Leica NJ "experience" or go to Wetzlar for future service. 

[PFM]

Just to be honest, I got into the R system kind of on a whim, as I found an R3 with the 2.8/28 on consignment for what I felt was a reasonable price.  I also shopped around quite a bit while buying other lenses to round out the kit.

 

I probably would have stayed with just the R3, but it has a metering problem that until I do a comprehensive test, it is not the body to be using.  But before I conceived how the test would be conducted, I came across a nice deal on the R7, so the R3 got back burner status.

 

In my research about the R system, I learned about how only a few of the first cameras were made in Germany before production was switched to Portugal.  Now I don't feel this had anything to do with the quality control of assembly, because the electronics were likely made elsewhere.  Seeing as it was a melding of Leica and Minolta technologies, I can chalk up the metering problem to one of two things: 1) Bad components on the meter board (I always tell folks who own Minolta X-700 cameras to buy at least three more for spares). 2) My confusion over when it was possible to use the Selective (spot meter) function.

 

However, the R7 meters perfectly no matter what mode it is in, since they are set up to use as-is, with the Selective function only on in two of the five exposure modes, instead of being user switchable no matter what mode you are in like on the R3.  And though they were all manufactured in Germany, I feel that the electronics could have been given an upgrade to eliminate some of the failures prone to the Minolta's design (such as the tantalum capacitor issue)

 

The lenses were what really sold me on expanding the kit.  After a roll of b&w shot exclusively with the 2.8/28, I was hooked (my avatar is one of the images from that roll).  And after some more research, I found out about the R6.2, a fully manual model with only the meter needing battery power.  I thought that would be great because I could shoot it like an M, only with reflex viewing.  But so far it has not fit into the budget, nor are they easy to find.

 

So I'll probably not be junking my R kit anytime soon, and may even make one or two more additions, but not with the same urgency I had before.

 

Gee, I'm already starting to get over my funk about Leica USA.  If my personal situation didn't preclude me from doing so, I might offer my services to them on helping to get their work flow straightened out (having worked in, and been in charge of repair shops for over twenty-five years for two large transportation companies, I could probably show them a thing or two).  But then maybe they don't want that kind of help.

 

PF

[MarkP]

I have a large M system digital and film.  Once EVFs were available for digital M cameras I bought a 28-90 Vario-Elmarit.  Thene I thought it's crazy having such a good lens and no film camera to use it with. So I bought an R7, 50 Summicron II  and 80-200 Vario-Elmar, a nicely rounded-out R film system ( it would perfect for me with a 24 or 28mm fixed-focal-length lens) and I couldn't be happier with it for when I want to use a film SLR.  

 

Have had NO problems with my R gear whatsoever, unlike the M system.  

 

The R7 is also now cheap enough that it can be replaced if it becomes unserviceable.  I looked at the R9 and although I have no doubt it is the best Leica SLR it is just too big.  I also considered an R6.2 but thought the purchase would have been more because of it's legendary status than anything else. I do like the convenience of aperture-prioprrity auto at times. I therefore dropped the idea of getting an R6.2, at least for now  .

Edited December 10, 2017 by MarkP

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[gyoung]

I remember the lenses I had very fondly, nothing exotic but the 50mm Summicron was lovely as usual, and even the 'humble' 35mm Elmarit. Both were the later E55 versions and I was very happy to use them alongside the M Summicrons.

Has anyone any idea how they do on evf cameras? Especially Fuji but other experience would be welcome. And is the 24mm really 'better' than the Minolta version?

 

Gerry