X Vario reduced price

[colonel]

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Please find and feel free to quote directly where I have used a single one of those specific terms in regard to any camera..

 

"The M8 was a stop-gap kludge"

 

"The XV is a neither fish nor fowl, described on the menu as fillet steak and served up as hamburger. I have yet to see a review that changes that opinion.

Regards,

Bill"

 

"The XV a mis-launched, over-hyped, overpriced, under-specified tinker-toy. Read my post earlier in this thread. Leica has lost it's way. I despair for its future. Meanwhile the money that I used to spend on Leica goes elsewhere. YMMV"

 

"Quote:

Originally Posted by sc_rufctr View Post

...Regardless of the specs Leica doesn't make junk

XV... M8...

Sent from another Galaxy

Bill Palmer"

 

"I've just done something REALLY radical!

I've READ the review BEFORE commenting upon it!"

 

"Quote:

Originally Posted by batmobile View Post

Do you own a M8/9?

The ultimate elitist Orwellian defensive gearhead "argument". This used to come up on the M8 Forum too... I thought we had outgrown that nonsense"

 

and many many others

 

I rest my case!

Edited March 26, 2014 by colonel

[bill]

So you *cannot* find a single one of those specific terms used by me...

 

Genuine question. Do you actually read what I and others write or just "get the sense of it"? I am really curious. I am not noted for my lack of clarity...

 

I don't advertise apps or devices unless they pay me...

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[earleygallery]

The XV is not far off the definitive high quality compact.

 

I would say that it's a loooong way off from being that!

 

I get that you own and X Vario and I also get that you're very happy with it, but I also think that you are unable to look at it objectively because of your emotional attachment to your camera.

 

This is a common trait, we see it on other camera forums, and indeed other types of product. People get very defensive about their choice of car, for example.

 

It's not a bad thing, but it does make it difficult to have a meaningful conversation about said item.

[colonel]

So you *cannot* find a single one of those specific terms used by me...

 

Genuine question. Do you actually read what I and others write or just "get the sense of it"? I am really curious. I am not noted for my lack of clarity...

 

I don't advertise apps or devices unless they pay me...

 

taking advantage of being on the next page of the thread ?

 

In all honesty it would be far easier to take what you say seriously if you a) based your assertions on fact not anecdote and refrained from breathtakingly sweeping and unfounded generalisations

 

!!!! gosh !!!!

[colonel]

I would say that it's a loooong way off from being that!

 

I get that you own and X Vario and I also get that you're very happy with it, but I also think that you are unable to look at it objectively because of your emotional attachment to your camera.

 

This is a common trait, we see it on other camera forums, and indeed other types of product. People get very defensive about their choice of car, for example.

 

It's not a bad thing, but it does make it difficult to have a meaningful conversation about said item.

 

I wasn't being defensive at all except for Bill's posts which are just general attacks and therefore need something more robust

 

specific dislikes are of course very interesting to hear

 

yes, for me of course. I said I would like an AEL button, 1/4000. Maybe wifi

 

what else would you like on a compact ?

[bill]

For goodness' sake stop making assumptions! I'm on a mobile bloody device! What possible difference does it make??

 

Never mind. I'm done. It's like trying to debate with a teenager.

 

I don't advertise apps or devices unless they pay me...

[bill]

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...It's not a bad thing, but it does make it difficult to have a meaningful conversation about said item.

 

Impossible...

 

 

I don't advertise apps or devices unless they pay me...

[dunos]

I suppose what it comes down to is... does it matter? All companies have product flops from time to time. Unless there is reasonable evidence that the XV is flopping then at the moment this appears to be speculation over an almost 1 year old camera that has had a relatively small price reduction (relative to the RRP that is) at some dealers in some countries. If the camera was that much of a flop would they have even bothered to produce the silver version? I would doubt it. Could they be making space for a compact system camera between the X series and the M series? Probably.

 

When I bought the XV I had been planning on going to the Mayfair store and buying in person. Yet when I saw the 100 year deal from one of the dealers I decided to buy online lest I risk missing out on the "free" accessories and reduced total price.

 

So why did I spend the best part of £2,000 on a single lens APS-C camera?

 

In no particular order:

 

• Leica experience and brand without the cost of an M
  
• Something compact but not an idiot proof point and shoot
  
• Smaller than a DSLR, low weight, wouldn't take up my entire hand luggage allowance
  
• Manual controls as much as possible, but without a thousand buttons
  
• I played with offerings from Fuji, Olympus and Sony and didn't like how they felt in my hands
  
• I didn't need a "system" - the lens I had on my old DSLR 99% of the time was a 28 to 75mm
  
• The pictures I was seeing on review sites, flickr, etc. looked good!
  

 

Am I happy with my purchase? Overall I would say yes. That isn't to say I don't have niggles:

 

• The flash button is far to easy to activate when holding in the hand
  
• The camera "shuts down" if not used for a while (e.g. when walking around) and needs to "wake up" before it can take a shot
  
• Auto ISO could do with a faster minimum shutter speed option
  

 

But I also realise technology moves on. Perhaps in the world of Leica it hasn't moved on at the rapid (rabid) pace that the Asian manufacturers have driven change, but it moves, prices will drop, products will become obsolete and you have to be happy with the purchase at the time you make it.

 

I would say that Leica has a much easier to understand product line in cameras than most other manufacturers. Are they missing a CSC? Yes they are but would that take buyers away from the X and the M? Yes I think it would. But I still think there is space in their line-up for the X.

[colonel]

Never mind. I'm done. It's like trying to debate with a teenager.

.

 

I forgot to mention that your posts are always laced with personal insults.

 

To reiterate, you accused me of generalizations but yet this is your bread and butter, as I clearly showed with the examples posted above.

 

Avoidance of the facts doesn't make them go away

[bill]

You have shown that you do not read what is written. Off to the ignore list for you.

 

I don't advertise apps or devices unless they pay me...

[colonel]

You have shown that you do not read what is written. Off to the ignore list for you.

 

I don't advertise apps or devices unless they pay me...

 

thank goodness

if you could also do that for the X forum in general

[bill]

Don't be silly, old chap. You will be in ratified company - there are only two other inhabitants of my ignore list, and I've only just realised one of them is gesperrt. I'll otherwise continue the dialogue with those who stick to facts and read what is written.

 

I don't advertise apps or devices unless they pay me...

[thighslapper]

Off to the ignore list for you.

 

 

Add me in please ......

 

"Gentleman Amateur & Leica Ambassador emeritus" .... really ?????

[bill]

Bless. ;-)

 

I don't advertise apps or devices unless they pay me...

[Jeff S]

Please find and feel free to quote directly where I have used a single one of those specific terms in regard to any camera.

 

Here

 

Sure, he never used the word 'junk', but if that's not a direct inference, then Bill's self-professed claim to clarity is rather disingenuous.

 

 

Jeff

 

A proud member of Bill's ignore list

And a former recipient of Bill's request to be a 'friend'

[IkarusJohn]

The high horses seem to be saddled and ready to dash off without their riders - all pretty childish.

 

In bill's defence (who?) - not something you will hear me say often (in fact, I'll deny it in future) - I seem to recall he has actually tried the XV.

 

I don't really think the quality of the camera has anything to do with it - I'm sure the images are good, and owners are happy, in the same way that Edsel drivers liked their cars (sorry, but I couldn't resist). The thing is that while the basics will be good (user interface, lens and image quality), too many fundamentals rule the camera out for me (and the new T is likely to be in the same boat):

 

• Sony APS-C sensor (I found this mediocre on previous cameras)
  
• I like my lenses to have the full frame proportions - a personal thing, but that's the way it is
  
• indifferent electronics
  
• slow zoom
  

 

Having said all that, I will look at the new T camera. But, as a compact second camera, I think I'll be sticking with my A7 - will visit B&H next week, and I'll either pick up the new Zeiss 24-70 OSS f/4 zoom (Tim Ashley speaks very highly of) or the 55mm/1.8 prime. I just don't think the new T, with new lenses, will do it for me.

 

Who knows, I might be wrong, but the A7 is an addition to the M system for me, whereas an APS-C Leica with new system lenses won't be.

 

Cheers

John

[stuny]

I just received email from one of the NY dealers with many sales items. They are advertising the model C with a free $125 flip case and the D Lux 6 G Star Raw with free pouch and grip worth $250. Not advertised, but found deeper in their site the XV in black is selling for US$2288, but the new silver version is selling for US$2850.

Edited March 28, 2014 by stuny

[earleygallery]

$2200 for that cam is still way too high. It's just an APSc sensor.

 

I bought a GXR body for $130, the M mount for $250, VF2 for $250, the A16 unit for $230. Then I bought Leica R to M adapter for $300, and now I can use a whole flotilla R lenses "and" M lenses.

 

I think people that bought that XV just got it because it's a Leica and they need a pat on the back for having one.

 

To be fair a GXR is never going to appeal to a potential 'typical' XV target customer.

 

A top range Canon APSC DSLR like the 7D with a top range lens is going to cost about the same as an XV (although I know which I'd choose) so to link 'APSC' with what you presumably think should be cheap is also wrong.

 

We're getting into totally meaningless comparisons here.

 

Leica are trying to sell these cameras to the 'trendy' 'luxury' 'gift' consumer, not the enthusiast amateur photographer.

[sfage]

We're getting into totally meaningless comparisons here.

 

Leica are trying to sell these cameras to the 'trendy' 'luxury' 'gift' consumer, not the enthusiast amateur photographer.

 

Well, those two sentences "kind of" sums it up, doesn't it? Respectfully, you've basically hit the nail right on the head, FOR me.

 

It's a "bobble"... or... a... "shiny thing".

 

I listed the price of the complete package of the Ricoh system. I am basically "in" for half the price, plus I have a viewfinder, plus their 16mp 24-70 lens, the manual focus assist on the Ricoh is probably the best I have ever seen (mode 2), I can use an entire array of R and M glass, it astonishingly light, the menu is one of the best -and most logical- I have ever seen and I could go on and on. As you said, and you were right to say it, one thing is a camera to use, the other is also that, but a trinket or piece of jewelry to be seen with.

Edited March 28, 2014 by sfage

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[wda]

...

 

Leica are trying to sell these cameras to the 'trendy' 'luxury' 'gift' consumer, not the enthusiast amateur photographer.

James, I really don't consider myself in either of these categories., certainly not the former. I had a valid reason for adding the XV as a companion to my M9 in order to add a workable live-view close range capability and it is already fulfilling that role admirably. A more costly and physically larger alternative would have been to buy an M 240, at a cost I could not justify for my future needs. So my M9 and XV are proving an ideal pairing for me. Generalising on purchasing or sales motives is a suspect activity unless you are informed by all of the facts.

 

I am sorry that this specialist thread has taken on such an acrimonious tone. Almost everything written, for or against, has been subjective and speculative. It is a shame that such wrath has been ventilated.

 

I have faith that Leica knows what it is doing; others clearly have not. Leica has produced some stunning products, albeit at premium prices. We have a choice either to buy into their ranges or participate elsewhere. I see no purpose in a specialist section of the forum being used in the way this thread has developed.

Edited March 28, 2014 by wda
Expanded rationale