Strange white spots on M9 sensor?

[k-hawinkler]

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You don't seem to have too many blue clear skies, I suppose?

[jonoslack]

You don't seem to have too many blue clear skies, I suppose?

 

Me?

you should understand that it's always sunny in the UK

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[erl]

Me?

you should understand that it's always sunny in the UK

... when flying at 30,000ft !

 

Back on topic. Yesterday I took my M9 into Camera Clinic asserting that it's sensor was delaminating. They are currently assessing it and will report back, soon I hope.

 

I have just returned from Turkey and Egypt where the camera performed just as I expect it to. However, I decided to get in early, before Herr Daniels announcement in the hope of being at the head of the queue, at least in Oz. Although no images have yet been affected, I can't risk the possibility. For me, gear must always be in optimal condition, just in case of optimal demand upon me.

 

I had already bid on a M240 (emergency backup scenario) yesterday, but now I will wait for my M9 to be cleared. I really don't want anything other than my M9.

Thank you Leica for making that possible.

 

To Chris_Sandford, the pic of your sensor is much like mine. I believe those round pale circles with dark centre are delamination. Of course I can be wrong.

Edited December 11, 2014 by erl

[chris_sanford]

Thanks, erl!

 

chris

[getiton]

The transmittance of the S8612 glass is optimal for absorbing IR light and transmitting Visible light. Other glasses in the Schott lineup are as efficient in passing visible light, but not as good absorbing IR. Others are as good at absorbing IR, but not as good at transmitting Visible light. On the basis of optical properties alone, the S8612 is the best choice. Resistance to humidity- other types of glass are better. Often, that's the trade-off. In 1979 a PhD Physicist taught me the law of "conservation of inconvenience". Goes along with Murphy's law.

 

Products | SCHOTT North America

 

No signs of corrosion on my M9 and M Monochrom, I hope that S8612 seal lasts forever because the glass is just so efficient. If it doesn't, nice to know that Leica will take care of the problem.

 

Reading this, makes me wonder if the permanent solution will be optically identical to the current sensor? Will it be worse, or even better?

 

If it will be worse optically but more durable (and how much more durable?), maybe it would be better to send in the camera now to get a sensor replacement before the permanent solution emerges.

 

Of course it may then be stuck in Germany pending stock...so if the old sensor is no longer being made, it will be until whenever the permanent fix is out...

 

To wait or not to wait?

[k-hawinkler]

Well, I don't think Leica can afford to replace defective sensor stacks for free ad infinitum.

So, they have to come up with a technical solution for those who want to keep their M9 going, accepting slightly different characteristics.

 

Of course, it also makes sense for Leica to entice M9 derivative camera owners to switch over to the M240.

 

I will continue to use my M9 and will look with interest at the follow on model to the M240 (and keeping the M9 anyway).

Edited December 11, 2014 by k-hawinkler

[plasticman]

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I don't think we need to be worrying about what the replacement might be like at this stage, I'm just glad there's a long-term and honorable solution for CCD Leicas going into the future. Excellent news and definitely the best way to turn around what might otherwise have been a PR disaster for the company.

[uhoh7]

Whilst your post makes good sense and you obviously have extensive knowledge in this field, my problem with this is that if it was a simple single issue problem then I would expect all sensors used in damp and humid conditions (as mine has been, but it shows no corrosion) to show corrosion, but they don't all seem to do so.

 

And if it is water that that proves to be the problem, its how it gets to where it causes corrosion which is in reality the problem and this might be more complex than it initially appears. From the start there have been many theories and speculations as to the cause of the corrosion - all I will suggest, based upon my experience, is that things are seldom as simple as a single straightforward cause or route when not all problems occur at the same time or in the same way.

 

I am not going to indulge in further speculation other than to say that if I was working on this at Leica I would want to be absolutely certain that the cause or causes are 100% known and understood before I tried to determine a remedy (the mechanism and costs and who should bear them are another story). It may be that the problem IS simple and that the solution is modified sensor replacement for ALL cameras, or it may be that the problem is a combination of various factors and may only affect a small percentage of cameras produced - none of us actually know do we?

 

Until Leica sort out the root cause or causes, determine viable remedies and instigate these, there is still IMO little point in speculating - only the design engineers know what compromises, if any, were really accepted and whether current technology or available components may allow for a remedy other than a complete change in sensor type, and that is available but requires a new body.....

 

I just want to be clear my post was a quote from Brian, and the knowledge is his. He also predicted Leica would step up, as they have to my great relief, and I hope to be shooting my M9 to my grave.

 

The only body I can imagine will interest me as an upgrade will need to be much smaller and lighter, with equal FF performance with M and LTM glass.

 

For my own personal taste and workflow the M9 is simply the best in the world.

Edited December 11, 2014 by uhoh7

[michali]

Rather disappointing, both of my M9s and my MM all have the same sensor spot issues.

 

M9 purchased in Sept 2009- & upgraded to M9P in Oct 2012:

The spots on this camera are visible at all apertures and so bad that it's unusable.

Full sensor:

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M9 purchased in Mar 2010:

 

 

MM purchased in Oct 2012:

 

[jaapv]

Hi, long time no see,Mike. Or did I miss your posts?

[Lenshacker]

Reading this, makes me wonder if the permanent solution will be optically identical to the current sensor? Will it be worse, or even better?

 

If it will be worse optically but more durable (and how much more durable?), maybe it would be better to send in the camera now to get a sensor replacement before the permanent solution emerges.

 

Of course it may then be stuck in Germany pending stock...so if the old sensor is no longer being made, it will be until whenever the permanent fix is out...

 

To wait or not to wait?

 

IF (and I mean IF) Leica decides to change cover glass to a type that does not have the humidity warning, such as (but not limited to) BG-18 or BG-42, you will give up a little bit on Base ISO. S8612 peaks at ~0.96 transmission, the other two at ~0.92. The BG-18 does a little better at absorbing IR. The shapes of the curves are about the same, and refractive index of the 3 glass types - the same. Calibration of the meter would have to change, done in firmware.

 

http://www.us.schott.com/advanced_optics/english/download/schott-bandpass-bg18-june-2014-en.pdf

 

http://www.us.schott.com/advanced_optics/english/download/schott-bandpass-s-8612-june-2014-en.pdf

 

http://www.us.schott.com/advanced_optics/english/download/schott-bandpass-bg42-june-2014-en.pdf

 

Open the three links in different windows and "click" between them.

 

As far as "crispness" in the image, these glasses are all made to be IR absorbing filters for photography. On Technology offers a variety of sensors in the same family as the KAF-18500 with different cover glass than S8612. They also offer sensors with taped cover glass that is easily replaced.

Edited December 11, 2014 by Lenshacker

[wlaidlaw]

I have now cleaned my replacement M9 sensor and I still have some worm tracks and a few haloed dots, so it looks as if the dreaded lurgie has struck again. I don't use my M9 very much now, so I will just put it aside until a more permanent solution is found and carry on using my M240/M8/M4. However it also looks as if the LCD or video chip on my M8 might be dying, as it keeps flickering and then steadying again. I am hoping it might just be a dirty battery contact, so I will clean those.

 

Wilson

[LotharZhou]

arrg, I think I got it too? Only two of these under F16, Leica mayfair had it cleaned two months ago. The picture is 100%, this is the most obvious one. M9P bought in Frankfurt in July 2012

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[michali]

Hi, long time no see,Mike. Or did I miss your posts?

 

Hi Jaap,

I've spent most of this year travelling, this is my first post in a very long time.

 

I trust you're keeping well!

All the best,

[k-hawinkler]

Hi Mike, welcome back.

I hope you can get your cameras repaired soon.

Question, can you wait for a permanent fix?

[michali]

Thanks K-H!

 

Yes I'm going to wait for a permanent fix, there's no point in rushing this. Once we have some clarity, I'll send both M9s and hold onto the Monochrom (which I use more), until the M9s are done and then send the Monochrom in.

 

In the meantime I'm still very happy using the Sony A7R and Leica lenses, what a great little camera! I'll post some images soon.

 

Best,

[k-hawinkler]

Thanks Mike.

I am looking forward to your images, as always.

It's always good to have choices.

I still use my A7R as well with native and Leica lenses.

The A7 II is very tempting, but I think I'll wait for the A7R II, A9 or whatever they will call it.

If Sony's 5-axis Steady Shot Inside works similarly well as Olympus' 5-axis IBIS that should be quite a treat.

[charlesphoto99]

The straight bubbled line looks a lot like the flaw I saw on my Monochrom sensor. I have no verdict by Leica yet.

 

I sent my less than a year old MM with maybe a couple to three thousand shots on it at most to Leica NJ for a rf adjust under warranty and they tried to charge me $2500 for a new sensor, owing to 'user fault.' I said screw that and clean it and send it back as my images looked fine. All I could detect was a small squiggle similar to the above (looks like a bacteria). I'm now wondering if they weren't aware of the problem at the time, or willing to fix for free. Like others though I'll hold out to see if it really becomes a problem, vs them hanging onto my camera for another 3-6 months. My M9, bought in the second month they were out, came back at the same time from a CLA just fine, though they did adjust the tilt of the sensor.

[k-hawinkler]

Why don't you get in touch with Leica Germany?

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Hallo,

Look here: Leica M

[charlesphoto99]

Why don't you get in touch with Leica Germany?

 

I was going through my dealer. But hopefully NJ should have been brought up to speed on this issue.