Strange white spots on M9 sensor?

[LUF Admin]

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Just a short notice from the admin:

 

Sorry that I didn't post here, we were very busy too - on the German side of the forum and behind the scene, especially by keeping Leica in Wetzlar informed.

 

A very, very brief summary:

Leica is aware of the problem in every way and really concerned about it. (Hopefully my English is sufficient to express HOW concerned they are).

A lot of departments and single employees in Wetzlar are working on finding the full reasons of the problem, how to solve them and how to find a good solution for all customers.

 

Please have one or two days patience until they are ready to publish their findings and decisions.

 

Thanks

Andreas

[pieterpronk]

Now, before this issue becomes common knowledge, seems to be a good time to sell my Monochrom. But I'm having a hard time justifying selling it to somebody who does not know about the risk he takes when buying my Monochrom.

 

What do you guys think? Would it be ethical to sell this camera for as much as possible, without mentioning this whole issue even when the buyer shows to have no knowlegde about this issue?

Would it be ethically sound to just point to the buyer's own responsibility to know what he is buying, or could I point to Leica's obligation to make the problem publicly known? (ie since Leica hasn't even officially told me as a buyer and certainly hasn't made steps to tell the broader public about this problem, why should I be ethically responsible for making sure a buyer knows about the issue).

 

At the moment I just don't feel comfortable selling my Monochrom because it feels wrong to make somebody pay 5000 (or whatever I could still get for it) for what seems to be a ticking financial time-bomb.

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[edwardkaraa]

I very much doubt it that any Leica buyer would still be unaware of this issue. The proof? Try to sell your Monochrom and see what price you'll get. I've seen many on offer on several forums at great prices and no one is interested.

[andybarton]

There will be thousands of Leica owners not aware of this issue.

 

If Leica have sold in excess of 40,000 M9s and derivatives, how many of those owners frequent this or other forums?

[jaapv]

I would at least wait for what Leica has to say.

Now, before this issue becomes common knowledge, seems to be a good time to sell my Monochrom. But I'm having a hard time justifying selling it to somebody who does not know about the risk he takes when buying my Monochrom.

 

What do you guys think? Would it be ethical to sell this camera for as much as possible, without mentioning this whole issue even when the buyer shows to have no knowlegde about this issue?

Would it be ethically sound to just point to the buyer's own responsibility to know what he is buying, or could I point to Leica's obligation to make the problem publicly known? (ie since Leica hasn't even officially told me as a buyer and certainly hasn't made steps to tell the broader public about this problem, why should I be ethically responsible for making sure a buyer knows about the issue).

 

At the moment I just don't feel comfortable selling my Monochrom because it feels wrong to make somebody pay 5000 (or whatever I could still get for it) for what seems to be a ticking financial time-bomb.

[Firefly]

I was in London yesterday and visited a couple of shops, one is an Authorised Dealer and the other an independent specialist. Both denied there being a problem with M9 sensors when the question was put to them, both had s/h M9's for sale cheers Rob

[Pangur Ban]

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As it happens, I have been thinking about replacing my M8 with a secondhand M9, but now I think I'll hang onto the M8, so that's one potential purchaser out of the market.

[edwardkaraa]

There will be thousands of Leica owners not aware of this issue.

 

If Leica have sold in excess of 40,000 M9s and derivatives, how many of those owners frequent this or other forums?

 

Even if they don't frequent the forums Leica owners like to belong to Leica groups and cliques and the delamination must have been known by now, me thinks.

[Jeff S]

Even if they don't frequent the forums Leica owners like to belong to Leica groups and cliques and the delamination must have been known by now, me thinks.

 

I know some dealers and salespersons who remain clueless about lots of current Leica issues. Don't underestimate the ignorance of many.

 

Even with an ultimate post from admin here, there will likely still be many who remain uninformed. That's why companies issue service/recall letters.

 

Jeff

[pieterpronk]

Well, chances are I wouldn't be selling to one of the 40.000 M9 owners, but perhaps to somebody not owning a digital Leica M just yet. Besides I don't think we should overstate the public reach of this M9 subforum with one thread on the issue in which two (or more?) posts by Leica affiliated people are hidden amongst many other posts.

 

A post hidden in a thread in a subforum is not a public announcement. I bet even if Leica tried its hardest with big advertisements it would not be able to reach everybody. I bet any company would love to have such easy direct communication with all of its customers and potential customers through a simple forum, but I don't think that's the case. I myself wouldn't have known if I didn't happen to check rangefinderforum, since I wasn't very active in the M9/MM forum here lately.

 

Anyway, I guess the earlier posts about the problem aren't really the final official Leica statements on the matter, since apparently Leica is still discussing and investigating the problem and still is thinking about how to handle the situation.

 

(One would almost think that the earlier statements on how this would be dealt with by Leica were just made to test the waters so to speak. To see if the die-hard Leica forum users would be satisfied with the deal offered.)

 

I will wait and see. (since I can't really sell it with a good conscience now anyway)

Edited December 9, 2014 by pieterpronk

[jonoslack]

At the moment I just don't feel comfortable selling my Monochrom because it feels wrong to make somebody pay 5000 (or whatever I could still get for it) for what seems to be a ticking financial time-bomb.

 

Well, I wouldn't feel comfortable either (certainly not trying to sell either my M9 or my Monochrom). I don't think it's dishonest . . . I just wouldn't feel comfortable.

 

However - I'm also aware that Leica is VERY concerned and VERY aware of the issue and I would be VERY surprised if they didn't come up with a satisfactory conclusion to the problem - in which case MM prices will presumably rise again.

[pieterpronk]

However - I'm also aware that Leica is VERY concerned and VERY aware of the issue and I would be VERY surprised if they didn't come up with a satisfactory conclusion to the problem - in which case MM prices will presumably rise again.

 

Well, I was VERY disappointed with the previous offer made, so this certainly sounds VERY promising.

[jaapv]

Well, I wouldn't feel comfortable either (certainly not trying to sell either my M9 or my Monochrom). I don't think it's dishonest . . . I just wouldn't feel comfortable.

 

However - I'm also aware that Leica is VERY concerned and VERY aware of the issue and I would be VERY surprised if they didn't come up with a satisfactory conclusion to the problem - in which case MM prices will presumably rise again.

I would feel VERY uncomfortable selling my Monochrom - period. I prefer to use it.

[Rolo]

a satisfactory conclusion to the problem - in which case MM prices will presumably rise again.

 

I also believe that Leica will respond with a satisfactory solution to repair/upgrade the cameras, but I suspect that the used market will always be flooded as users move away from the M9, as it appears that the issue is a recurring one with no permanent fix. That will severely suppress prices for a very long time, IMO.

 

Who will pay even £2,500 for a body that is likely to fail beyond any used warranty period ? Some dealers are already saying that they can't take more M9 stock and if Leica go back to back with them, how expensive will that be ?

[Manoleica]

Well they could just say - Bankruptcy. You all sort it out"

 

They should start a special repair facility just for the Sensor Issue.. and include a Full camera service & recalibration. With up to 5 years Free Sensor replacement or modified Sensor.

 

Replace the Sensors & offer a 75% exchange allowance on the next reincarnation of the camera.

 

Muddle through, blow a lot of smoke..and let the moaners moan.

 

 

Feel free to add thoughts & ideas.................

[Rolo]

Can I suggest that the very first thing they do is make an absolutely clear statement that this issue does not affect the M240, nor the S2/S(006)/S7 products.

 

That sends a strong message that the problem is contained within superseded products (although the MM is still current). There's then no reason to sell lenses and find alternative suppliers.

Edited December 9, 2014 by Rolo

[k-hawinkler]

Well, I would consider it unethical to sell an M9 without pointing out the potential issue at this time.

It's as simple as that.

If Leica still has to study the problem this late they sure must have willfully ignored it for far too long.

Leica now has to really work hard to regain my trust.

[ThePioneer]

I certainly will not be selling either my Monochrom or M9, but if I were inclined to do so I would feel it necessary to inform potential buyers of any potential sensor problem, even if that meant I realized less on the sale. My own personal ethics dictate that for me and I would feel that I was no different than Leica were I to keep this issue under wraps.

 

These are my own personal feelings and are not advice intended for others.

[jaapv]

Can I suggest that the very first thing they do is make an absolutely clear statement that this issue does not affect the M240, nor the S2/S(006)/S7 products.

 

That sends a strong message that the problem is contained within superseded products (although the MM is still current). There's then no reason to sell lenses and find alternative suppliers.

 

The issue is linked with corrosion effects on the cover glass of the CCD sensor in Leica M9, M9-P, M Monochrom and M-E cameras. They manifest themselves as marks on images captured at smaller apertures (f/5.6-22). The new Leica M (Type 240) with the CMOS sensor is not affected by this problem

.

 

 

Official statement by Mr.Viau. I am sure they didn't imagine anybody would project this problem on the S series.

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Hallo,

Look here: Leica M

[Ario Arioldi]

I have just received back my 5 years old M9, purchased in October 2009, completely revised and with a new sensor. I had to pay 0 (zero) € for the service.

It was sent to Leica two months back when I discovered the white spots we are talking about.